July 2002
- It's About Time Dep... Food Anderson, David
- Player count threshholds (was: Text Muds vs Graphical Muds) Christopher Allen
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Sasha Hart
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Valerio Santinelli
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Dave Trump
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Valerio Santinelli
- The importance of graphics Zach Collins {Siege}
- The importance of graphics brian hook
- The importance of graphics Ted L. Chen
- The importance of graphics eric
- The importance of graphics Edward Glowacki
- The importance of graphics Matthew D. Fuller
- The importance of graphics Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The importance of graphics Damion Schubert
- The importance of graphics Kwon Ekstrom
- The importance of graphics jolon@kungfudesign.com
- The importance of graphics Matt Mihaly
- The importance of graphics Marc Bowden
- The importance of graphics Koster, Raph
- The importance of graphics VdA
- The importance of graphics Marc Bowden
- The importance of graphics jolon@kungfudesign.com
- The importance of graphics caduvall@glue.umd.edu
- The importance of graphics Matt Mihaly
- The importance of graphics Michael R. Estepp
- Completed Article Series at Skotos Shannon Appelcline
- NWN upping the ante? Or is that too much to ask? Azeraab
- NWN upping the ante? Or is that too much to ask? Matt Chatterley
- Crafting/Creation systems Paul Boyle
- Crafting/Creation systems eric
- Crafting/Creation systems cooper
- Crafting/Creation systems cheesecrow@mail.ru
- Crafting/Creation systems Matt Mihaly
- Crafting/Creation systems Aaron "the mad man" Weeks
- Crafting/Creation systems Peter Tyson
- Crafting/Creation systems Paul Boyle
- Crafting/Creation systems lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems shren
- Crafting/Creation systems Jeff Lindsey
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
Ron Gabbard writes:
> From: "John Buehler" <johnbue@msn.com>
>> Paul Boyle writes:
> Make is such that the items created are useless? That's the
> situation with most MMOGs. Mob-dropped items are almost always
> superior to player-crafted. I agree with the 'explorer' argument
> with regards to crafting. One thing I've tried to put into the
> trades system I've been toying with is a sense of discovery and
> ownership of that discovery... as well as random events that get
> the heart racing.
I'll start out by saying that I *want* an entertaining crafting
experience. The trades are one of my primary interests in gaming
and I'm similarly disappointed by the trivial treatment that they
receive.
My suggestion was to provide a test for designers coming up with
crafting systems to determine if their crafting system was
entertaining. If they only packaged up the crafting system and
tried to sell it as a game on its own merits, would anyone play it?
In truth, I'd apply that test to the combat systems as well. I've
gotta believe that people play these games primarily for social
reasons. The raw entertainment really isn't there.
> Miners own their mines and the ore/gem/precious metal mined from
> that vein will be relatively stable. However, there is also the
> chance that hitting a certain pocket will unleash a subterranean
> monster to be dealt with, or that rare super-size gem might be
> harvested, or a long-buried artifact from a long-dead civilization
> might be uncovered which triggers a 'what the heck is this' quest
> for the miner, or even breaking through to a subterranean cavern
> that triggers a server-wide quest and introduces a new dungeon
> into the world. The gathering of raw materials by players is so
> necessary in order to have a balanced, inflation-proof economy but
> mining, lumberjacking and such are typically the most boring of
> all the trades.
I have an aversion to long hours of boredom punctuated by moments of
entertainment. My most fundamental tenet to crafting is that the
boring part has to be entertaining. If it can't be done, then don't
have players do that part. Have NPCs do it and have the players
manage them. I could easily imagine that harvesting could be made
entertaining, at least for a while, but it's not by hearing the same
chopping and cutting sounds and seeing the same animation on the
exact same tree graphic over and over again. Every activity in a
game that a player is invited to engage in must be more entertaining
than current combat systems. And that includes combat and forestry.
Note that I don't believe that harvesting raw materials *by players*
has anything at all to do with a balanced, inflation-proof economy.
> The second stage crafters are the component makers... the
> alchemists and metallurgists. I went with an attribute-based
> system instead of a recipe-based system. [snip details]
Doesn't that just delay the onset of a recipe system? Same comment
for 'final stage crafters'.
> This system makes some basic assumptions: Differences in item
> attributes must be supported by the other systems in the game.
[snip examples]
Absolute agreement there. Crafted items should ideally be variable
in every parameter that the game systems support. And game systems
should support a bunch of 'em. Not gratuitously, but meaningfully
such that they add to the entertainment of the game for everyone.
> Secondly, one of the biggest downfalls to most crafter communities
> stems from the oversupply of crafters. Rich players will log on
> their trade mule and powerskill their trade mule character while
> at work or otherwise occupied where they can't play a 'real'
> character. It's that low of involvement. The end result is that
> the trade mule has the same skill set as the character who spends
> their entire life in a city hawking their wares and really
> 'playing' the crafter role. Increase the involvement of the
> crafting process and you have given the 'core crafters' a
> much-needed competitive edge over the trade mules.
If you end up with recipe-based crafting, those recipes will be
published and all players will know how to make the stuff. So that
cannot be the discriminator to separate serious crafters from those
who just want the end-result. This is where game designers attempt
to make it hard to become a crafter. And they do that by making
crafting boring. Given that PvE is usually boring, this actually
doesn't deter the non-crafters any more than the crafters. I favor
a simple statement by players that they want their character to be a
good crafter OR a good politician OR a good fighter OR a good
doctor. Whatever specialization they care to pursue. If you don't
want to specialize, be a pretty good politician-doctor-crafter. Or
whatever. The point being that the selection of profession and
character competency in the game environment should be arbitrary.
And the players should be able to rebalanced at any time, but with a
low change. If I'm a perfectly trained fighter today and want to be
a perfectly trained crafter, I say today that I want to be a
perfectly-trained crafter. In six weeks, I'll be fully changed
over. In three weeks, half of each. While I'm in transition, I'll
lose my fighting skills (starting at the high end) and I'll start
gaining on the crafting skills. With skills gained, I may have to
visit trainers, go on quests, etc. in order to work with the game
fiction of acquiring all the skills, but I gain them inexorably.
Short form: being a crafter is a commitment by the player to pursue
a certain avenue of entertainment in the game. If I want to be a
master tailor, I have to choose that over other avenues of
entertainment.
> Finally, just because someone likes making the items (regardless
> of involvement) and enjoys the whole creation process doesn't mean
> that they have the interpersonal skills to sell the items.
> Language and cultural differences may drive some of this but some
> of it is just driven by differences in personality. Design
> distribution systems where crafters can sell their wares without
> being door-to-door sales people. The 'reward' to the crafter
> would vary by involvement of the distribution system but the
> individual player can decide whether the reward is worth the cost.
> By varying the distribution systems and final products they can
> carry, you end up with a world where each player can determine
> their own experience. A player may decide to hit the local
> '7-Eleven' and pick up a 'stock' sword that isn't 'ideal' for them
> and expensive given its effectiveness... but is usable and
> convenient. Or, they may travel a bit to get to a blacksmith's
> shop where there may be a greater variety of inventoried weapons
> for sale that are better suited for that character giving them
> 'more bang for the buck'. Or, the character may search out a
> specific blacksmith to have a weapon custom-made for them given
> their strength, size, and other determining factors. The players
> place their own cost/benefit ratio on activities... which is a
> good thing in promoting the individualized experience.
I'm with you on this stuff. Let the players discover natural
structures for the economy. Of course, the game designers are going
to have to anticipate the difference between the virtual checks and
balances versus the real world checks and balances. We all know
that they're not the same.
> The 'Crafter Experience' needs to be more than just repetitively
> hitting a button and making generic products. Imagine if the
> combat systems were such that characters would run up to an
> opponent and just hit <ATTACK> and the RNG would determine if you
> win or lose based on the variance between character skill level
> and difficulty of the target. Casters would automatically cast
> 'Spell'... Ranged combatants would automatically shoot
> 'Projectile'... Melee combatants would swing 'Weapon'. I could
> have written that code on my Apple IIe in BASIC... yet that's
> where most games are with their trade skills.
It's funny that you say this because I've presented this exact
comparison in defense of how unentertaining crafting systems are.
Designers do not 'get it'.
JB - Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems Dave Rickey
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems Dave Rickey
- Crafting/Creation systems Vincent Archer
- Crafting/Creation systems Matt Mihaly
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems Brandon J. Van Every
- Crafting/Creation systems amanda@alfar.com
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems Damion Schubert
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems Dave Rickey
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s Ted L. Chen
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Vincent Archer
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Marian Griffith
- Mass customization in MM***s Sasha Hart
- Mass customization in MM***s lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Zach Collins {Siege}
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Marian Griffith
- Mass customization in MM***s Travis Casey
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Amanda Walker
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Marian Griffith
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s Amanda Walker
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Sasha Hart
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Sasha Hart
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Paul E. Schwanz, II
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Koster, Raph
- Mass customization in MM***s Marc LaFleur
- Mass customization in MM***s Koster, Raph
- Mass customization in MM***s Madrona Tree
- Mass customization in MM***s Marc LaFleur
- Mass customization in MM***s Koster, Raph
- Mass customization in MM***s Marc LaFleur
- Mass customization in MM***s Paul Boyle
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Michael Tresca
- Mass customization in MM***s Brandon J. Van Every
- Mass customization in MM***s P.David
- NLP tools? Robert Zubek
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Edward Glowacki
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Koster, Raph
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Jeff Lindsey
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Damion Schubert
- Game Convention Development Survey Casbaria
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Koster, Raph
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Derek Licciardi
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? shren
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Matt Mihaly
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Marian Griffith
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immature? Paul Schwanz
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Marc LaFleur
- Salon article: "Showdown in cyberspace: Star Wars vs. The Sims" Robert Zubek
- Are gratifiction-based (online) societies doomed to being immature? Jay C.
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Vladimir Cole
- A Question on PvP and PK szii@sziisoft.com
- A Question on PvP and PK eric
- A Question on PvP and PK Paul Boyle
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Vincent Archer
- A Question on PvP and PK Jeff Lindsey
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK szii@sziisoft.com
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK Koster, Raph
- A Question on PvP and PK Derek Licciardi
- A Question on PvP and PK Lars Duening
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK shren
- A Question on PvP and PK Dave Rickey
- A Question on PvP and PK Daniel James
- A Question on PvP and PK Sean Kelly
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Sean Kelly
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK szii@sziisoft.com
- A Question on PvP and PK Lars Duening
- A Question on PvP and PK Koster, Raph
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Zach Collins {Siege}
- A Question on PvP and PK Kwon Ekstrom
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Jeff Lindsey
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK John Buehler
- A Question on PvP and PK Eli Stevens
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Paul Schwanz
- A Question on PvP and PK Amanda Walker
- A Question on PvP and PK Jeff Lindsey
- A Question on PvP and PK Amanda Walker
- A Question on PvP and PK Sasha Hart
- A Question on PvP and PK apollyon .
- A Question on PvP and PK Sasha Hart
- A Question on PvP and PK ghovs
- A Question on PvP and PK Dave Trump
- A Question on PvP and PK Paul Boyle
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK Moonvine
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s Yannick.Jean@csst.qc.ca
- Réf. : Mass cus tomization in MM*** s Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s John Buehler
- Réf. : Mass cus tomization in MM*** s Jeff Lindsey
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s John Buehler
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s Damion Schubert
- Réf. : Mass cus tomization in MM*** s Jeff Lindsey
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) shren
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) shren
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) Acius
- Gamasutra plans to feature MMOGs Lars Duening
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Marian Griffith
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Greg Titus
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Sean Kelly
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Greg Titus
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) shren
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Dave Shepherd
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) John Buehler
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Travis Casey
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Jessica Mulligan
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Damion Schubert
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Koster, Raph
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Christopher Allen
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) John Bertoglio
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Adam
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Sie Ming
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Jeff Cole
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Damion Schubert
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposit ion? Anderson, David
- Gratification-based MUDs luke@rocketship.com
- Rif. : Mass customization in MM*** s Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- EQ in mainstream news again... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH: Britt A. Green
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Sean Kelly
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Anderson, David
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) John Buehler
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Sie Ming
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Derek Licciardi
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Damion Schubert
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Sara Jensen
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore John Buehler
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Matt Mihaly
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore John Buehler
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Sasha Hart
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore John Buehler
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients Valerio Santinelli
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients Zach Collins {Siege}
- java clients Kwon Ekstrom
- java clients Daniel James
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients Colin Coghill
- java clients Brandon J. Van Every
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients Brandon J. Van Every
- java clients Philippe Lalande
- java clients justice@softhome.net
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients David Love
- java clients Jon A. Lambert
- java clients fred@clift.org
- java clients Lars Duening
- java clients Jon A. Lambert
- java clients justice@softhome.net
- java clients David Love
- java clients Travis Casey
- java clients bruce@cubik.org
- java clients Fred Clift
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients Karl Bastiman
- java clients David Yazel
- java clients Christopher Kohnert
- java clients ceo
- java clients Christopher Kohnert
- java clients ceo
- java clients Christopher Kohnert
- java clients Daniel James
- java clients ceo
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients ceo
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Jack Britt
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Ammon Lauritzen
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sasha Hart
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Trickey, Rob
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Anderson, David
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Zach Collins {Siege}
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? shren
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Mathieu Castelli
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Peter Harkins
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Jack Britt
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sasha Hart
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Jo Dillon
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Bruce Mitchener
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sie Ming
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Michelle Elbert
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Paul E. Schwanz, II
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sean Kelly
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Christopher Allen
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sage
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Michael Tresca
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Brandon J. Van Every
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Frank Crowell
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Sasha Hart
- Creative guy seeking a MUD c_andreev@fmi.uni-sofia.bg
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Koster, Raph
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Michael Tresca
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling Tools Ron Gabbard
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling Tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Michael Tresca
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Miroslav Silovic
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Michael Tresca
- Hangul (was Réf. : Mass customization in MM***s) Travis Casey
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Brandon J. Van Every
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Lars Duening
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Marc Bowden
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Valerio Santinelli
- A question of PvP and PK Adam
- web-based MUD editing tools? Brandon J. Van Every
- web-based MUD editing tools? Kwon Ekstrom
- web-based MUD editing tools? Christopher Allen
- web-based MUD editing tools? Sanvean
- web-based MUD editing tools? John Bertoglio
- web-based MUD editing tools? zifnab@islandsofmyth.org
- Hangul (was Réf. : Mass customization in MM***s) Sean Kelly
- ADMIN: List configuration changes J C Lawrence
- Hangul (was Ref. : Mass customization in MM***s) Jake Song
- Hangul (was Réf. : Mass customization in MM***s) David Kennerly
- Phonetic and Ideographic languages (was Hangul) Nathan F. Yospe
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Brandon J. Van Every
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Lars Duening
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Malcolm Tester
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Brandon J. Van Every
- current portable lpmud code libraries? Brandon J. Van Every
- current portable lpmud code libraries? David Bennett