March 2002
- ADMIN: Sorry for the delays J C Lawrence
- progress quest matt hellige
- progress quest Frank Crowell
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Dan MacDonald
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Vincent Archer
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Fred Clift
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Dan MacDonald
- Thank you from MudWorld ucmm@inetsolve.com
- [rpg-create] Female Gamers (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Time Theory David C.Z. Wacks
- Time Theory Marc Bowden
- Time Theory Travis Nixon
- Time Theory Marc Bowden
- Time Theory Koster, Raph
- Time Theory Freeman, Jeff
- Time Theory Eli Stevens
- Time Theory Matt Mihaly
- Time Theory Peter Tyson
- Time Theory Mats Lidstrom
- Time Theory Anderson, David
- Time Theory Mats Lidstrom
- Time Theory Vincent Archer
- Time Theory David Kennerly
- Time Theory Torgny Bjers
- [GameDesign] "How to tell if a game design is good or bad" (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [decentralization] time may have structure (fwd) J C Lawrence
- EQ RPG Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Rapture Matt Mihaly
- Re:Time Theory Talies the Wanderer
- Re:Time Theory Travis Nixon
- Re:Time Theory Leland Hulbert II
- MMORPG Comparison Elia Mörling
- More Prevalent and Effective Emotes Paul Schwanz
- More Prevalent and Effective Emotes John Buehler
- Meridian 59 re-launched! Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- MUD-Dev GDC dinner and Pseudo-META BBQ J C Lawrence
- [Meta] EQ RPG J C Lawrence
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Jessica Mulligan
- Blacksnow revisted Jeff Cole
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Zach Collins {Siege}
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Marian Griffith
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Eli Stevens
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Mark Eaton
- Blacksnow revisted Kylotan
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Travis Casey
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Marc Bowden
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Kylotan
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shaver@mozilla.org
- Blacksnow revisted Patrick Black
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Amanda Walker
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Amanda Walker
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Ron Gabbard
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Jessica Mulligan
- Blacksnow revisted Christopher Kohnert
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Bill Williamson
- Blacksnow revisted Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted fred@clift.org
- Blacksnow revisted Stefan Ripperger
- Blacksnow revisted Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Kyle Leithoff
- Blacksnow revisted Christopher Allen
- Blacksnow revisted Stefan Ripperger
- Blacksnow revisted Fred Clift
- Blacksnow revisted Mike Shaver
- [Meta] EQ RPG Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- [Meta] EQ RPG Dave Rickey
- [Meta] EQ RPG Vincent Archer
- Blacksnow revisited John Robert Arras
- Blacksnow revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisited Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisited Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Blacksnow revisited Mike Mormando
- Blacksnow revisited Matt Mihaly
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG szii@sziisoft.com
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Rogue_Buddha
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisited Robert A. Rice Jr.
- [PR] Skotos Releases Hegemony Strategic Game Christopher Allen
- Skotos Seven StoryBuilder Obstacles & Openings Christopher Allen
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) Joey Hess
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) Fred Clift
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) F. Randall Farmer
- Prediction (Was: Quake II has gone GPL) T o F
- Emminent Wisdom Mike Povoski
- Emminent Wisdom shannona@skotos.net
- Schubert's law of player expections John Szeder
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Jason Booth
- Money matters Jean, Yannick (îlot)
- Money matters eric rhea
- Alternatives to Permadeath Jon Leonard
- Alternatives to Permadeath Richard A. Bartle
- Alternatives to Permadeath Blane Bramble
- Alternatives to Permadeath szii@sziisoft.com
- Alternatives to Permadeath Casbaria
- Alternatives to Permadeath Mordengaard
- Alternatives to Permadeath Brian Bilek
- Alternatives to Permadeath Jason Booth
- Alternatives to Permadeath Richard A. Bartle
- Alternatives to Permadeath Sasha Hart
- Alternatives to Permadeath Travis Casey
- Alternatives to Permadeath T o F
- User-created content ownership Edward Glowacki
- User-created content ownership Zach Collins {Siege}
- User-created content ownership Christopher Allen
- User-created content ownership Richard A. Bartle
- User-created content ownership Christopher Allen
- User-created content ownership Sean Kelly
- User-created content ownership Richard A. Bartle
- User-created content ownership Blane Bramble
- User-created content ownership Jon Lambert
- Black Snow Revisited Jessica Mulligan
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Jeff Cole
- Black Snow Revisited Jeff Cole
- Black Snow Revisited ghovs
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Marian Griffith
- Black Snow Revisited John Buehler
- Black Snow Revisited Rudy Fink
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited ghovs
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Norman Short
- Black Snow Revisited Kristen L. Koster
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Norman Short
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Derek Licciardi
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Koster, Raph
- Black Snow Revisited Richard Woolcock
- Black Snow Revisited Derek Licciardi
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Dan Merillat
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Jeremy Noetzelman
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Jeremy Noetzelman
- Black Snow Revisited Zach Collins {Siege}
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited John Robert Arras
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Jon Lambert
- Black Snow Revisited David H. Loeser Jr.
- Black Snow Revisited Brian Bilek
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Marian Griffith
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Conference of possible interest for commercial games Rayzam
- BIZ NEWS: Virtual kingdom richer than Bulgaria Kylotan
- HELP WANTED! Roger Hicks
- HELP WANTED! Shane Gough
- Black Snow Revisited Dave Rickey
- Black Snow Revisited Brad McQuaid
- Black Snow Revisited Leverett, William
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Dr. Cat
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
From: "Dr. Cat" <cat@realtime.net>
> Legally speaking, I think you have the right to tell someone "You
> can give this to someone for free but you can't sell it for
> money". Much shareware comes with those exact terms.
Most shareware couldn't *be* sold to someone for money. :P
> But even they have problems sometimes with somebody out to make a
> buck throwing it on some collection of "500 best shareware games"
> without permission.
Which, in the Real World(TM), virtually none of them can or do
detect and prevent.
> And they're dealing with someone who is at least pretending to try
> to be a businessman, wherease the online game companies are
> dealing with regular ordinary individual consumers. Do you really
> expect them to buy into "You can give this away but you can't sell
> it"? I don't think they will.
It's also rather sticky when you can sell it for GAME money, but not
REAL money.
One of the biggest problems in this has nothing to do with who owns
what. The problem is that selling game items for real money is
definitely and demonstrably destructive to the game. It gives items
to people who did not earn them, taking them away from people who
did. Reward is no longer commensurate with effort. When you fight
your way through the dragon to the chest and find that someone has
been waiting there to take the sword before you can get it, you
don't get what you earned and the other player does. It's even
worse when that other player already had the sword anyway... and
even WORSE when he goes out and sells it for $500 in real
money. This is a Bad Thing.
Unfortunately, it's also... part of the game. If you can't defeat
the dragon, it's smart and sneaky and entirely a good idea to slip
past the guy who *can* defeat the dragon while they're fighting,
then grab the sword and run off with it. It's even better when you
then go up to that player and offer to sell him the sword, seeing as
how you can't carry it so you had to hide it somewhere and if he
gives you enough money you'll tell him where... and it's even
BETTER when you lie to him so you can run off with the sword *and*
the money. That's part of the fun.
So we have a social phenomenon -- treachery and greed -- which is
entirely acceptable if it stays in the game, but entirely
unacceptable if it goes outside the game. But the game admins can
only enforce what happens in the close *vicinity* of the game. So
whether something is part of the game or not is rather difficult to
determine, because Mythic cannot effectively police the entire
internet. If a Mythic employee saw me accept payment for 1000 gold
pieces somewhere, he could conceivably go and prevent my character
from giving people gold... but he doesn't necessarily know who my
character is, or when I'm going to transfer the gold, or where I'm
going to transfer the gold. It's trivial these days to set up a
secure link for discussion of the order, so even if you're watching
the message go by all you get is garbage and the details of "Meet
Tristram on the Bedevere server in Albion" are unavailable. You have
to monitor every transaction in every realm on every server until
you see the transaction happen, and even then how can you be sure
it's not just some guy giving his friend 1000 gold? Even if you know
it's me, how do you know I'm not just giving someone 1000 gold and
wasn't paid for it? What if I tell Biff to give the buyer 432 gold
and then I give the buyer 568 gold? What if I put 1000 gold in a
sack and give someone the sack? I mean, eventually, I'm going to
figure out how to give someone 1000 gold without you seeing it
happen.
You CAN'T enforce this on the server. You CAN'T enforce this off the
server. All you can do is cancel accounts as soon as you identify
the buyers and sellers, and even then it's pretty trivial to avoid
identification. What if you *do* catch me selling things? So you
terminate my account and invalidate my credit card and CD key; big
deal! All I have to do is go sell the CD as used and buy a new copy
of the game, then apply for a new account; I get at least four
credit card offers in the mail every day, so I can have as many
credit cards as I need (provided I don't destroy my credit). All
told, you cost me at most $30 for each account, and I can keep more
accounts than you can easily track with very little effort. If I can
make $600 in sales before you catch me, do you think I'll even
sneeze at $30?
In short, Mythic wants to prevent something that is next to
impossible to prevent. While they can certainly say it's against the
rules and terminate the accounts of people who violate the rules, it
is *not* going to stop people from continuing to violate the rules
any more than tickets prevent people from speeding. It's a losing
battle, and something other than saying "stop that" needs to be
done.
One of the thoughts I had recently was keeping (say) a 500-item ID
queue. Every time you pick up or otherwise acquire a "significant"
item, it goes in the queue, and until it drops out of the queue you
can't get another one from its normal spawn point. Someone else can
give you one, you can buy one in a shop, all of that -- but you
can't get one from the spot where you got one before without someone
else's help (and a different person's every time, too!). So the
"significant" items stay scarce, and while you can certainly buy and
sell insignificant items among players, who would care? Maintaining
a "maximum count" for each of these items would also point out
pretty rapidly whether someone is going around duping items, and
those who traffic in them will be rather easy to spot either from
rapid turnover or consistently high counts in their "significant
item" queue. Since 500 significant items is pretty hefty, chances
are the average player won't even roll the stack over once, and it's
unlikely anyone would ever have more of a significant item than they
could actually *use*. I'm not sure how workable this would be in
the Real World(TM), but it might be a start on a concept someone
might find useful. - Black Snow Revisited Jason Booth
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Black Snow Revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- GDC articles Koster, Raph
- GDC articles Koster, Raph
- TECH: Complex NPCs * * * * * *
- TECH: Complex NPCs Acius
- TECH: Complex NPCs Dave Rickey
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sasha Hart
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sean Kelly
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs John Robert Arras
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Rudy Neeser
- TECH: Complex NPCs Robert Zubek
- TECH: Complex NPCs Madrona Tree
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sasha Hart
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sean Kelly
- More GDC Koster, Raph
- My GDC talks Koster, Raph
- My GDC talks Koster, Raph