March 2002
- ADMIN: Sorry for the delays J C Lawrence
- progress quest matt hellige
- progress quest Frank Crowell
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Dan MacDonald
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Vincent Archer
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Fred Clift
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Dan MacDonald
- Thank you from MudWorld ucmm@inetsolve.com
- [rpg-create] Female Gamers (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Time Theory David C.Z. Wacks
- Time Theory Marc Bowden
- Time Theory Travis Nixon
- Time Theory Marc Bowden
- Time Theory Koster, Raph
- Time Theory Freeman, Jeff
- Time Theory Eli Stevens
- Time Theory Matt Mihaly
- Time Theory Peter Tyson
- Time Theory Mats Lidstrom
- Time Theory Anderson, David
- Time Theory Mats Lidstrom
- Time Theory Vincent Archer
- Time Theory David Kennerly
- Time Theory Torgny Bjers
- [GameDesign] "How to tell if a game design is good or bad" (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [decentralization] time may have structure (fwd) J C Lawrence
- EQ RPG Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Rapture Matt Mihaly
- Re:Time Theory Talies the Wanderer
- Re:Time Theory Travis Nixon
- Re:Time Theory Leland Hulbert II
- MMORPG Comparison Elia Mörling
- More Prevalent and Effective Emotes Paul Schwanz
- More Prevalent and Effective Emotes John Buehler
- Meridian 59 re-launched! Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- MUD-Dev GDC dinner and Pseudo-META BBQ J C Lawrence
- [Meta] EQ RPG J C Lawrence
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Jessica Mulligan
- Blacksnow revisted Jeff Cole
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Zach Collins {Siege}
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Marian Griffith
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Eli Stevens
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Mark Eaton
- Blacksnow revisted Kylotan
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Travis Casey
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Marc Bowden
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Kylotan
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shaver@mozilla.org
- Blacksnow revisted Patrick Black
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Amanda Walker
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Amanda Walker
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Ron Gabbard
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Jessica Mulligan
- Blacksnow revisted Christopher Kohnert
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Bill Williamson
- Blacksnow revisted Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted fred@clift.org
- Blacksnow revisted Stefan Ripperger
- Blacksnow revisted Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Kyle Leithoff
- Blacksnow revisted Christopher Allen
- Blacksnow revisted Stefan Ripperger
- Blacksnow revisted Fred Clift
- Blacksnow revisted Mike Shaver
- [Meta] EQ RPG Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- [Meta] EQ RPG Dave Rickey
- [Meta] EQ RPG Vincent Archer
- Blacksnow revisited John Robert Arras
- Blacksnow revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisited Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisited Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Blacksnow revisited Mike Mormando
- Blacksnow revisited Matt Mihaly
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG szii@sziisoft.com
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Rogue_Buddha
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisited Robert A. Rice Jr.
- [PR] Skotos Releases Hegemony Strategic Game Christopher Allen
- Skotos Seven StoryBuilder Obstacles & Openings Christopher Allen
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) Joey Hess
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) Fred Clift
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) F. Randall Farmer
- Prediction (Was: Quake II has gone GPL) T o F
- Emminent Wisdom Mike Povoski
- Emminent Wisdom shannona@skotos.net
- Schubert's law of player expections John Szeder
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Jason Booth
- Money matters Jean, Yannick (îlot)
- Money matters eric rhea
- Alternatives to Permadeath Jon Leonard
- Alternatives to Permadeath Richard A. Bartle
- Alternatives to Permadeath Blane Bramble
- Alternatives to Permadeath szii@sziisoft.com
- Alternatives to Permadeath Casbaria
- Alternatives to Permadeath Mordengaard
- Alternatives to Permadeath Brian Bilek
- Alternatives to Permadeath Jason Booth
- Alternatives to Permadeath Richard A. Bartle
- Alternatives to Permadeath Sasha Hart
- Alternatives to Permadeath Travis Casey
- Alternatives to Permadeath T o F
- User-created content ownership Edward Glowacki
- User-created content ownership Zach Collins {Siege}
- User-created content ownership Christopher Allen
- User-created content ownership Richard A. Bartle
- User-created content ownership Christopher Allen
- User-created content ownership Sean Kelly
- User-created content ownership Richard A. Bartle
- User-created content ownership Blane Bramble
- User-created content ownership Jon Lambert
- Black Snow Revisited Jessica Mulligan
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Jeff Cole
- Black Snow Revisited Jeff Cole
- Black Snow Revisited ghovs
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Marian Griffith
- Black Snow Revisited John Buehler
- Black Snow Revisited Rudy Fink
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited ghovs
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Norman Short
- Black Snow Revisited Kristen L. Koster
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Norman Short
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, Norman Short wrote:
> Some control? You guys have already said you want the ability to
> read people's minds and intent and apply it to corporate policy.
*ahem* I can't say I recall anyone here posting that they want the
ability to read people's minds and intent and apply it to corporate
policy. You're exaggerating. I'll happily admit I'd love that
ability, however. It'd be useful in identifying potential customers,
figuring out how I can make them happier, and warding off grief
players, crackers, and other such undesirables.
> You're saying you can control the actions and speech of people who
> aren't connected to your service. You're saying an enterprising
> young person can't make trades offline even though the game
> mechanics are set up to allow you to make them online. The
> actions in game are identical to the actions of the other players.
> So you want to read minds and intimidate those who actually say
> they don't agree with your interpretation ofyour rights. You guys
> have gone way past "some control". I see this as little different
> than deciding what type of person you want playing your game; you
> can feel free to cancel accounts for someone being gay, for
> example, which in most states wouldn't be covered by
> anti-discrimination law. I see little difference when you say you
> can judge the minds and intent of the people performing an action
> in game from what they do outside of it. You guys want god-like
> powers over your game world, and in the real world you're
> dreaming.
Actually, we already have god-like powers over our game worlds. We
don't really need to lust after them.
>>> You absolutely don't have the right to tell players who they can
>>> talk to and what they can do when they are not connected to the
>>> service.
>> This case isn't about that -- it about transfering a contract for
>> service from one person to another. Non-transferrable contracts
>> happen all the time.
> You can change the subject to one in which you feel more
> comfortable. In fact, you are trying to say what people can say
> and do outside the service.
Personally, I can't control what people do outside my
service. However, I'd feel free to ban people for things they did
outside it. Why do you presume I shouldn't be able to? I can ban you
if I don't like the color of your hair. I can ban you, in fact, for
just about any reason I want. I or another mud developer wouldn't be
in business very long if we acted like that, and I think you'll find
that generally speaking, it is in our best interest to do exactly
the opposite. Enough customers leave on their own. I don't need to
find reasons to make more of them leave.
> head of the MUD, have decided they don't deserve. I just think
> you guys have gotten delusions of grandeur.
I don't think anyone has delusions of grandeur here. We're just
telling you how we do things. We're already doing them. It's not a
delusion. We're grand, damn it! ;)
You seem to be implying all these sinister motives to us, when in
fact, you don't have any idea how much time MUD developers (at least
successful ones) spend worrying and fretting over how to make the
customers as a group as HAPPY as possible. You don't have some
god-given right to be in my virtual world, and if kicking you out
makes the world a better place on the whole, for the other
customers, then out the door you go. Is that fair? Maybe not, but
really, fair doesn't come into it. My #1 concern is the customer
experience, and if you're doing more harm than good to it, you're
probably not someone I want in my world. It's not sinister. It's not
a plot. It's just practical.
> Yup. Feel free to cancel the account. You have that power, I
> said that. Now determine the minds and speech outside game of all
> your players, and cancel the accounts of those who don't pass your
> virtual mind reader.
You know, if you see a guy giving a known prostitute money, and then
you watch the two of them go somewhere and do their thing, don't you
think it's pretty reasonable to assume that she's having sex with
him because of the money? It doesn't require reading their minds to
figure it out.
> No fair changing the arguments in mid-stream--this is exactly what
> Jessica Mulligan stated as a legal reason to stop people from
> talking about trades outside game. In fact that is what you are
> doing, since you have no way to know if money changed hands.
> Seems like in this instance you agree with me. If the game sold
> items to players then they could charge loss of trade from these
> outside transactions, but the ones that don't aren't seeking
> business profits from any of the player to player trades.
Erm, what do you mean you have no way to know if money changed
hands? Blacksnow Interactive is open about their business. Mythic is
apparently able to identify their employees. It's pretty obvious
that Mythic DOES know that they were charging money for those items.
> You haven't shown that you lose monthly subscriptions due to this
> practice, and in fact evidence can be shown to say that you
> actually gain longer subscriptions and longer playtime.
Ok, show us the evidence. That's e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e not
c-o-n-j-e-c-t-u-r-e. I'm sure if you could show some solid evidence,
a lot of companies would change their policies. Their interests are
pretty pragmatic after all: money.
> now. I maintain that you are actually losing money by not
> embracing these dynamics that players want. Sell the items
> yourself, just as Matt Mihaly does, and your revenue will increase
> by leaps and bounds. Try to stuff the genie back in the bottle
> and come off as whiners with million dollar corporate backing.
> Maybe you too could buy off a Senator and write the bill to make
> all of this illegal, then you wont have to test it in court.
> Well, you probably would still get appeals.
Argh, stop complimenting me. I don't think you understand why our
system works. Business models and game design are intertwined. You
can't just take one and blindly slap it on somewhere else. If
Everquest started selling -all- items in the game themselves, I
think they'd find this:
1. An absolute storm of outrage on every message board around.
2. A short-term, probably quite large, spike in revenue.
3. A playerbase that quickly decides that since they are selling
success, the only people who will ever amount to anything are the
few who can afford to spend thousands of dollars.
4. Account cancellations up the wazoo.
5. Bankruptcy.
Achaea doesn't have to deal with #1, because a) You don't HAVE to
give us a dime, and people seem to generally recognize the
trade-off, and we don't get hit with #3, because you just can't buy
the stuff that makes the biggest impact in Achaea: reputation.
>> Aparently the real world that most of us are living in is
>> different from your hypothetical real world.
> And I'll keep my world-view that you guys are the ones in
> Fantasyland. Which of us is right? Let's talk in 5 years.
Well, I know this: We're right at the moment, and jokesters like
Blacksnow aren't going to change that.
--matt - Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Derek Licciardi
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Koster, Raph
- Black Snow Revisited Richard Woolcock
- Black Snow Revisited Derek Licciardi
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Dan Merillat
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Jeremy Noetzelman
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Jeremy Noetzelman
- Black Snow Revisited Zach Collins {Siege}
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited John Robert Arras
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Jon Lambert
- Black Snow Revisited David H. Loeser Jr.
- Black Snow Revisited Brian Bilek
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Marian Griffith
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Conference of possible interest for commercial games Rayzam
- BIZ NEWS: Virtual kingdom richer than Bulgaria Kylotan
- HELP WANTED! Roger Hicks
- HELP WANTED! Shane Gough
- Black Snow Revisited Dave Rickey
- Black Snow Revisited Brad McQuaid
- Black Snow Revisited Leverett, William
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Dr. Cat
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Jason Booth
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Black Snow Revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- GDC articles Koster, Raph
- GDC articles Koster, Raph
- TECH: Complex NPCs * * * * * *
- TECH: Complex NPCs Acius
- TECH: Complex NPCs Dave Rickey
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sasha Hart
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sean Kelly
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs John Robert Arras
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Rudy Neeser
- TECH: Complex NPCs Robert Zubek
- TECH: Complex NPCs Madrona Tree
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sasha Hart
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sean Kelly
- More GDC Koster, Raph
- My GDC talks Koster, Raph
- My GDC talks Koster, Raph