March 2002
- ADMIN: Sorry for the delays J C Lawrence
- progress quest matt hellige
- progress quest Frank Crowell
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Dan MacDonald
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Vincent Archer
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Fred Clift
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Dan MacDonald
- Thank you from MudWorld ucmm@inetsolve.com
- [rpg-create] Female Gamers (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Time Theory David C.Z. Wacks
- Time Theory Marc Bowden
- Time Theory Travis Nixon
- Time Theory Marc Bowden
- Time Theory Koster, Raph
- Time Theory Freeman, Jeff
- Time Theory Eli Stevens
- Time Theory Matt Mihaly
- Time Theory Peter Tyson
- Time Theory Mats Lidstrom
- Time Theory Anderson, David
- Time Theory Mats Lidstrom
- Time Theory Vincent Archer
- Time Theory David Kennerly
- Time Theory Torgny Bjers
- [GameDesign] "How to tell if a game design is good or bad" (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [decentralization] time may have structure (fwd) J C Lawrence
- EQ RPG Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Rapture Matt Mihaly
- Re:Time Theory Talies the Wanderer
- Re:Time Theory Travis Nixon
- Re:Time Theory Leland Hulbert II
- MMORPG Comparison Elia Mörling
- More Prevalent and Effective Emotes Paul Schwanz
- More Prevalent and Effective Emotes John Buehler
- Meridian 59 re-launched! Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- MUD-Dev GDC dinner and Pseudo-META BBQ J C Lawrence
- [Meta] EQ RPG J C Lawrence
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Jessica Mulligan
- Blacksnow revisted Jeff Cole
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Zach Collins {Siege}
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Marian Griffith
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Eli Stevens
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Mark Eaton
- Blacksnow revisted Kylotan
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Travis Casey
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Marc Bowden
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Kylotan
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shaver@mozilla.org
- Blacksnow revisted Patrick Black
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Amanda Walker
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Amanda Walker
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Ron Gabbard
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Jessica Mulligan
- Blacksnow revisted Christopher Kohnert
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Bill Williamson
- Blacksnow revisted Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted fred@clift.org
- Blacksnow revisted Stefan Ripperger
- Blacksnow revisted Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Kyle Leithoff
- Blacksnow revisted Christopher Allen
- Blacksnow revisted Stefan Ripperger
- Blacksnow revisted Fred Clift
- Blacksnow revisted Mike Shaver
- [Meta] EQ RPG Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- [Meta] EQ RPG Dave Rickey
- [Meta] EQ RPG Vincent Archer
- Blacksnow revisited John Robert Arras
- Blacksnow revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisited Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisited Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Blacksnow revisited Mike Mormando
- Blacksnow revisited Matt Mihaly
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG szii@sziisoft.com
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Rogue_Buddha
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisited Robert A. Rice Jr.
- [PR] Skotos Releases Hegemony Strategic Game Christopher Allen
- Skotos Seven StoryBuilder Obstacles & Openings Christopher Allen
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) Joey Hess
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) Fred Clift
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) F. Randall Farmer
- Prediction (Was: Quake II has gone GPL) T o F
- Emminent Wisdom Mike Povoski
- Emminent Wisdom shannona@skotos.net
- Schubert's law of player expections John Szeder
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Jason Booth
- Money matters Jean, Yannick (îlot)
- Money matters eric rhea
- Alternatives to Permadeath Jon Leonard
- Alternatives to Permadeath Richard A. Bartle
- Alternatives to Permadeath Blane Bramble
- Alternatives to Permadeath szii@sziisoft.com
- Alternatives to Permadeath Casbaria
- Alternatives to Permadeath Mordengaard
- Alternatives to Permadeath Brian Bilek
- Alternatives to Permadeath Jason Booth
- Alternatives to Permadeath Richard A. Bartle
- Alternatives to Permadeath Sasha Hart
- Alternatives to Permadeath Travis Casey
- Alternatives to Permadeath T o F
- User-created content ownership Edward Glowacki
- User-created content ownership Zach Collins {Siege}
- User-created content ownership Christopher Allen
- User-created content ownership Richard A. Bartle
- User-created content ownership Christopher Allen
- User-created content ownership Sean Kelly
- User-created content ownership Richard A. Bartle
- User-created content ownership Blane Bramble
- User-created content ownership Jon Lambert
- Black Snow Revisited Jessica Mulligan
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Jeff Cole
- Black Snow Revisited Jeff Cole
- Black Snow Revisited ghovs
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Marian Griffith
- Black Snow Revisited John Buehler
- Black Snow Revisited Rudy Fink
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited ghovs
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Norman Short
- Black Snow Revisited Kristen L. Koster
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Norman Short
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Derek Licciardi
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Koster, Raph
- Black Snow Revisited Richard Woolcock
- Black Snow Revisited Derek Licciardi
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Dan Merillat
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Jeremy Noetzelman
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Jeremy Noetzelman
- Black Snow Revisited Zach Collins {Siege}
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited John Robert Arras
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Jon Lambert
- Black Snow Revisited David H. Loeser Jr.
- Black Snow Revisited Brian Bilek
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Marian Griffith
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Conference of possible interest for commercial games Rayzam
- BIZ NEWS: Virtual kingdom richer than Bulgaria Kylotan
- HELP WANTED! Roger Hicks
- HELP WANTED! Shane Gough
- Black Snow Revisited Dave Rickey
- Black Snow Revisited Brad McQuaid
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Dave Rickey wrote:
> I am not allowed to comment on this case in any particular, but
> will someone *please* think through the implications for potential
> future changes to the game and possible legal recourse for those
> financially impacted, if the courts recognize ownership rights for
> in-game value converted to real-world currency, and share those
> implications with the list?
Well, Dave, since you asked, I'll put in my 2 cents, temporarily
leaving my solitude as a lurker, because I think this issue of
paramount importance to the future of commercial MMOGs.
First, though, congrats to the earlier Mud-dev poster for the Lego
analogy -- it's the best one I've heard yet. I don't care how long
you worked building your castle made of Legos in Legoland, nor how
much you paid to get into Legoland for your season pass, you're not
going to sell the castle, nor transfer 'ownership' of the castle,
nor charge other Legoland customers for access to your castle.
Quite simply, EULAs need to exist in order to protect the
developers, publishers, AND the integrity of the games (or really,
any software in general). In fact, I'm pretty sure the only reason
you can 'own' that which you create with Adobe Photoshop or
Microsoft Word is because the EULA allows you to. If that right
isn't explicitly granted, you don't. Another analogous example are
game editors: you're more than welcome to create Unreal or Quake
levels, but I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to sell those levels
without permission.
Anyway, back to Dave's question:
Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney, I'm just a game developer who was
involved in a fairly successful MMORPG and wants to keep making
these games for some time because, well, we've only scratched the
surface in terms of the potential of these games. Therefore, any
attempt by anyone, regardless of motive, that could injure or impede
the progress and evolution of MMOGs is cause for me to worry.
Here's my major concern: If the courts ruled a player owned the
virtual property his avatar accumulated in-game, then the prices
associated with selling these items via Ebay and elsewhere could be
used to argue that these items truly have value. Consequently, if
the developers 'nerfed' the item, and its value went down, they just
damaged the value of someone else's property, and could be held
liable. Or, let's say a bug caused his item to disappear: whoops,
now the developer owes the player the 'value' of the item. Heck,
even indirect activity on the part of the developer, especially in
games focused on player-driven economies, could alter the perceived
value of said item. MUDflation could cause the in-game AND real
world value of the item to drop. And then if a player could argue
that the developer then financially damaged him…
We need to remember that MMOGs are games. They're not the virtual
worlds we read about in Snowcrash, etc. (Yet). And they're not
supposed to be. They're games that take place in a virtual online
environment. And games have to have rules, and people who maintain
those rules. If you go sign your kid up to play in a local soccer
club, he or she might have certain privileges, but he certainly
can't decide that the ball is suddenly his, or that he doesn't like
the fact that only the goalie can pick up the ball, and that he, a
defender, wants to put his hands on the ball too. Were he able to,
the game would fall apart. The game would cease to be a GAME.
Sure, it might be something else... a council... a democracy... a
government... a society... a community... and I know that's where a
lot of people want Virtual Online Worlds to go.
And that's fine. One day they will. There will be Snowcrash
virtual worlds, where people really own a piece of cyber-property,
and they can do what they want with it, make their own rules, do
social experiments on the development of cyber-communities, etc.
That's cool, that's great, and I'm looking forward to it.
But even in these future worlds, I bet there will be GAMES inside
those virtual worlds, and again, if they are to be games, they need
rules, and someone has to run the game, and someone has to regulate
the game, and at least attempt to maintain a level playing field.
Because if they don't, the game's no fun.
And I think that's what Dave's getting at. If the courts ruled in
Blacksnow's favor, games like EQ, UO, DAoC, and AC would be ruined.
Period. They would cease to operate. The stewards of the
game... the developers, the publishers, the game masters,
etc. couldn't do their jobs because they wouldn't have the right
to... their activities would violate the 'rights' of the players to
control their characters and their characters possessions.
Now, on the other hand, I think a MMOG COULD be created that COULD
grant rights of ownership to players, were the game designed to
support that. Let's go back to the Microsoft Word analogy: the
product is DESIGNED to allow those licensed to use it to create
documents that they then own (heh, wouldn't be much good if you
couldn't). So if you went and designed a game around player
generated content or player ownership, and facilitated it, and
somehow made a level playing field and a 'fun' game-like experience
built around this, you could do it.
But, quite simply, the current MMOGs aren't designed for that, and
would ruined by any such decision by the courts. And I think there
are several MMOGs currently in development, and then those who've
not yet been made, that rely on the developers/publishers ability to
control the rules and environment in which the game is played. And
therefore if these games are to continue to be successful, and
continue to be developed, and continue to be dreamed about,
Blacksnow must lose.
All, IMHO, of course :)
--
---------------------------------------------
Brad McQuaid
President & CEO
Sigil Games Online, Inc.
--------------------------------------------- - Black Snow Revisited Leverett, William
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Brad McQuaid
- Black Snow Revisited Dr. Cat
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Jason Booth
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Black Snow Revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- GDC articles Koster, Raph
- GDC articles Koster, Raph
- TECH: Complex NPCs * * * * * *
- TECH: Complex NPCs Acius
- TECH: Complex NPCs Dave Rickey
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sasha Hart
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sean Kelly
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs John Robert Arras
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Rudy Neeser
- TECH: Complex NPCs Robert Zubek
- TECH: Complex NPCs Madrona Tree
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sasha Hart
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sean Kelly
- More GDC Koster, Raph
- My GDC talks Koster, Raph
- My GDC talks Koster, Raph