March 2002
- ADMIN: Sorry for the delays J C Lawrence
- progress quest matt hellige
- progress quest Frank Crowell
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Dan MacDonald
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Vincent Archer
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Fred Clift
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Dan MacDonald
- Thank you from MudWorld ucmm@inetsolve.com
- [rpg-create] Female Gamers (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Time Theory David C.Z. Wacks
- Time Theory Marc Bowden
- Time Theory Travis Nixon
- Time Theory Marc Bowden
- Time Theory Koster, Raph
- Time Theory Freeman, Jeff
- Time Theory Eli Stevens
- Time Theory Matt Mihaly
- Time Theory Peter Tyson
- Time Theory Mats Lidstrom
- Time Theory Anderson, David
- Time Theory Mats Lidstrom
- Time Theory Vincent Archer
- Time Theory David Kennerly
- Time Theory Torgny Bjers
- [GameDesign] "How to tell if a game design is good or bad" (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [decentralization] time may have structure (fwd) J C Lawrence
- EQ RPG Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Rapture Matt Mihaly
- Re:Time Theory Talies the Wanderer
- Re:Time Theory Travis Nixon
- Re:Time Theory Leland Hulbert II
- MMORPG Comparison Elia Mörling
- More Prevalent and Effective Emotes Paul Schwanz
- More Prevalent and Effective Emotes John Buehler
- Meridian 59 re-launched! Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- MUD-Dev GDC dinner and Pseudo-META BBQ J C Lawrence
- [Meta] EQ RPG J C Lawrence
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Jessica Mulligan
- Blacksnow revisted Jeff Cole
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Zach Collins {Siege}
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Marian Griffith
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Eli Stevens
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Mark Eaton
- Blacksnow revisted Kylotan
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Travis Casey
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Marc Bowden
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Kylotan
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shaver@mozilla.org
- Blacksnow revisted Patrick Black
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Amanda Walker
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Amanda Walker
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Ron Gabbard
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Jessica Mulligan
- Blacksnow revisted Christopher Kohnert
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Bill Williamson
- Blacksnow revisted Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted fred@clift.org
- Blacksnow revisted Stefan Ripperger
- Blacksnow revisted Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Kyle Leithoff
- Blacksnow revisted Christopher Allen
- Blacksnow revisted Stefan Ripperger
- Blacksnow revisted Fred Clift
- Blacksnow revisted Mike Shaver
- [Meta] EQ RPG Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- [Meta] EQ RPG Dave Rickey
- [Meta] EQ RPG Vincent Archer
- Blacksnow revisited John Robert Arras
- Blacksnow revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisited Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisited Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Blacksnow revisited Mike Mormando
- Blacksnow revisited Matt Mihaly
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG szii@sziisoft.com
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Rogue_Buddha
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisited Robert A. Rice Jr.
- [PR] Skotos Releases Hegemony Strategic Game Christopher Allen
- Skotos Seven StoryBuilder Obstacles & Openings Christopher Allen
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) Joey Hess
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) Fred Clift
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) F. Randall Farmer
- Prediction (Was: Quake II has gone GPL) T o F
- Emminent Wisdom Mike Povoski
- Emminent Wisdom shannona@skotos.net
- Schubert's law of player expections John Szeder
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Jason Booth
- Money matters Jean, Yannick (îlot)
- Money matters eric rhea
- Alternatives to Permadeath Jon Leonard
- Alternatives to Permadeath Richard A. Bartle
- Alternatives to Permadeath Blane Bramble
- Alternatives to Permadeath szii@sziisoft.com
- Alternatives to Permadeath Casbaria
- Alternatives to Permadeath Mordengaard
- Alternatives to Permadeath Brian Bilek
- Alternatives to Permadeath Jason Booth
- Alternatives to Permadeath Richard A. Bartle
- Alternatives to Permadeath Sasha Hart
- Alternatives to Permadeath Travis Casey
- Alternatives to Permadeath T o F
- User-created content ownership Edward Glowacki
- User-created content ownership Zach Collins {Siege}
- User-created content ownership Christopher Allen
- User-created content ownership Richard A. Bartle
- User-created content ownership Christopher Allen
- User-created content ownership Sean Kelly
- User-created content ownership Richard A. Bartle
- User-created content ownership Blane Bramble
- User-created content ownership Jon Lambert
- Black Snow Revisited Jessica Mulligan
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Jeff Cole
- Black Snow Revisited Jeff Cole
- Black Snow Revisited ghovs
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Marian Griffith
- Black Snow Revisited John Buehler
- Black Snow Revisited Rudy Fink
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited ghovs
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Norman Short
- Black Snow Revisited Kristen L. Koster
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Norman Short wrote:
> I just came across this thread, since I've been too busy to read
> everything the list has been sending lately. But frankly I'm
> amazed. I think you game company people have your head in the
> clouds ignoring reality.
Oh, you mean game companies don't own the servers that their players
play on? You mean that a game company doesn't have the right to say
what can and can't be done with accounts on their servers? I'd say
you were the one who isn't seeing reality.
> Intuitively these policies sound downright anti-American, and anti
> business.
I repeat - can you tell a game company what to do with their
property? Note that in this case it _seems_ that having a monthly
account with the game company is a contract for some type of
service. Are you implying that a company wanting to write a
contract that lets them keep some control over their own property is
unamerican or anti-business? I suggest that the opposite is true.
> You absolutely don't have the right to tell players who they can
> talk to and what they can do when they are not connected to the
> service.
This case isn't about that -- it about transfering a contract for
service from one person to another. Non-transferrable contracts
happen all the time.
> I could go into all the legal niceties, but lets just live in the
> real world for a bit, shall we? The internet is unpoliceable.
> You have zero ability to stop people from contacting each other
> and
Just because something is difficult or near impossible does not mean
it is a) illegal or b) something you should ignore.
> suggest you start 1000 court proceedings immediately instead.
No legal matters need to be started, but the contract can be
cancelled if the customer does not keep his end of the deal.
> I don't buy the "they'd have stayed longer if you didn't sell them
> an item" line.
I dont think people have been saying that an individual player would
stay longer if they didn't purchase an item from someone like BSI --
I think the claims have been that the company looses revenue when
such things happen. Personally, I'd get frustrated and leave a game
if I saw _other people_ buying stuff like this when it was stated
that it wasn't allowed. (Well, if the game were designed up front
to encourage that kind of thing, or if say, it were an expected part
of the game to keep buying stuff - think collectable card games...).
I would think that the buyers would actually stay longer if they
could buy uber-gear, but I would also think that this would drive
away other players. Or, perhaps it would keep people from buying
more accounts when they wanted to play a different character.
> acquire it. You're like the studio industry when the VCR came
> about; trying to close legal loopholes and stop people from doing
> what they want and claiming the practice costs you money.
No, I'd say game companies are more like cable-TV operators that
thrive on keeping monthly-subscriptions comming in. The game
companies provide a service, not a piece of hardware. You can buy
all the $40 boxes you want at the local computer store -- if they
shut down their servers or if you just decided not to pay money for
a service contract with them, you would have nowhere to play the
game.
> the Grail in that you can make more money by selling the items
> yourself instead of just letting players fill the vacuum in
> providing a service they want and you wont provide.
Now wether this is a good business practice or not, I dont know - I
dont know the particulars. Even then, something being a 'bad
business practice' doesn't make it illegal or unamerican.
> service, you're still losers. Plug a hole here, a dozen spout up
> somewhere else. You're just trying to prevent players from doing
> something they can easily do and want to do. Lets not forget
> you've never tried to assert these rights in court. My guess is
> you're afraid to; afraid that the results might give players a
> right or two you'd like to deny them.
Wait a minute -- looks like you are "judging 'our' intent" which you
said was a job for the courts, not for mortals in the gamming
industry.
> The longer I see you guys trying to artificially stunt the
> players, try to make their advancement a slow creep in search of
> dollars, the less interested I get in playing these games. And
> no, I've never been a seller or buyer of the online stuff. I just
> think you folks are way too full of yourselves.
Well, I guess you aren't talking about me, since the game I work on
is free. The game does not make us money in any way. In our game,
if you sold a character to some fool, I wouldn't have much of a
problem with it. However if you sold some equipment for real money,
you'd probably get some sort of administrative punishment for not
role-playing correctly. Using Out-Of-Character means to gain some
In-Character advantage is bad form and officially 'frowned upon'. I
mean, what possible IC motivation could a character in the world
have to just seemingly give away valuable things?
Oh, and if you do have a character in the world I work on, and we
decide to just rmeove it or delete it, you dont have any rights that
would prevet us doing this.. Note that we do not arbitrarily do
things like that. However, when we delete someone's character for
cheating, or effectively banish them via some sort of ban, those
people have no recompense. In general, they knew what they were
doing was against the rules and knew what the likley punishment
would be. We own the server, we pay for network access, we own the
content of the world, every bit of it. If you can't abide by the
rules of the world we run, then you are welcome to a full refund of
$0 and welcome to leave.
Aparently the real world that most of us are living in is different
from your hypothetical real world.
Fred
--
Fred Clift - fred@clift.org -- Remember: If brute
force doesn't work, you're just not using enough. - Black Snow Revisited Norman Short
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Derek Licciardi
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Koster, Raph
- Black Snow Revisited Richard Woolcock
- Black Snow Revisited Derek Licciardi
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Dan Merillat
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Jeremy Noetzelman
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Jeremy Noetzelman
- Black Snow Revisited Zach Collins {Siege}
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited John Robert Arras
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Jon Lambert
- Black Snow Revisited David H. Loeser Jr.
- Black Snow Revisited Brian Bilek
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Marian Griffith
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Conference of possible interest for commercial games Rayzam
- BIZ NEWS: Virtual kingdom richer than Bulgaria Kylotan
- HELP WANTED! Roger Hicks
- HELP WANTED! Shane Gough
- Black Snow Revisited Dave Rickey
- Black Snow Revisited Brad McQuaid
- Black Snow Revisited Leverett, William
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Dr. Cat
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Jason Booth
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Black Snow Revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- GDC articles Koster, Raph
- GDC articles Koster, Raph
- TECH: Complex NPCs * * * * * *
- TECH: Complex NPCs Acius
- TECH: Complex NPCs Dave Rickey
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sasha Hart
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sean Kelly
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs John Robert Arras
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Rudy Neeser
- TECH: Complex NPCs Robert Zubek
- TECH: Complex NPCs Madrona Tree
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sasha Hart
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sean Kelly
- More GDC Koster, Raph
- My GDC talks Koster, Raph
- My GDC talks Koster, Raph