March 2002
- ADMIN: Sorry for the delays J C Lawrence
- progress quest matt hellige
- progress quest Frank Crowell
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Dan MacDonald
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Vincent Archer
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Fred Clift
- Synchronizing Client and Server... Dan MacDonald
- Thank you from MudWorld ucmm@inetsolve.com
- [rpg-create] Female Gamers (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Time Theory David C.Z. Wacks
- Time Theory Marc Bowden
- Time Theory Travis Nixon
- Time Theory Marc Bowden
- Time Theory Koster, Raph
- Time Theory Freeman, Jeff
- Time Theory Eli Stevens
- Time Theory Matt Mihaly
- Time Theory Peter Tyson
- Time Theory Mats Lidstrom
- Time Theory Anderson, David
- Time Theory Mats Lidstrom
- Time Theory Vincent Archer
- Time Theory David Kennerly
- Time Theory Torgny Bjers
- [GameDesign] "How to tell if a game design is good or bad" (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [decentralization] time may have structure (fwd) J C Lawrence
- EQ RPG Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Rapture Matt Mihaly
- Re:Time Theory Talies the Wanderer
- Re:Time Theory Travis Nixon
- Re:Time Theory Leland Hulbert II
- MMORPG Comparison Elia Mörling
- More Prevalent and Effective Emotes Paul Schwanz
- More Prevalent and Effective Emotes John Buehler
- Meridian 59 re-launched! Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- MUD-Dev GDC dinner and Pseudo-META BBQ J C Lawrence
- [Meta] EQ RPG J C Lawrence
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Jessica Mulligan
- Blacksnow revisted Jeff Cole
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Zach Collins {Siege}
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Marian Griffith
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted amanda@alfar.com
- Blacksnow revisted Eli Stevens
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Mark Eaton
- Blacksnow revisted Kylotan
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Travis Casey
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Marc Bowden
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Kylotan
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shaver@mozilla.org
- Blacksnow revisted Patrick Black
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Amanda Walker
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Amanda Walker
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Ron Gabbard
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted shren
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Damion Schubert
- Blacksnow revisted Paul Schwanz
- Blacksnow revisted Jessica Mulligan
- Blacksnow revisted Christopher Kohnert
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Bill Williamson
- Blacksnow revisted Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <bloo@playnet.com>
> Caliban Tiresias Darklock wrote:
>> From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <bloo@playnet.com>
>>> I'd be careful about accusing companies of deliberate
>>> misrepresentations in bad faith in a public setting.
>> I know. See the word "allegedly" in the quoted material above.
> [Missed allegedly there. Apologies, though, like chicken soup, it
> couldn't hurt]
"Well, I hardly think that's good enough! I should think it more
appropriate if the box bore a big red label, WARNING: LARK'S VOMIT!"
;)
> Technically, there is some distinction between selling a service
> and licensing intellectual property. This situation is the
> latter.
I don't agree. Look at the component parts of the process.
- Player gives BSI money. Legal.
- BSI logs onto game and hooks up with player. Legal.
- BSI gives player a prearranged item. Legal.
That's what BSI is saying they do. Take the money, meet the player
online, give him what he bought. At *no* time does BSI transfer any
intellectual property; there's only a payment for services
rendered. To what exactly does Mythic object? Are players not
permitted to give each other money, not permitted to arrange offline
that they will hook up online, or not permitted to give one another
items?
It should be reasonably clear that this argument is not rigorously
logical, since it's essentially the fallacy of composition: doing
each of these things is okay, therefore doing all of them is
okay. There are any number of analogies which are similar but result
in a final activity that *isn't* okay. This isn't a rigorously
logical discussion, however, since it's about law.
> Under the EULA, one of the things you cannnot do is substitute
> someone else for yourself (if my recollection of the EULA is
> accurate from reading last month).
I'm deliberately avoiding the account question, because I think it's
pretty obvious that an account essentially represents a contract and
you can't sell your contract to someone else without the consent of
all other involved parties. In *that* sense, you're completely
correct in the assertion that this is a contract law case,
full-stop.
What I'm concerned with is the transfer of gold, inventory items,
and such like. Both of these issues have real world counterparts;
for the account question, you can't sell someone your job and/or
your family, which is pretty much what selling an account is:
transferring professional and personal context for a fee. Obviously,
the sale of accounts is reasonably indefensible. For the inventory
question, however, you *can* sell someone the things you're carrying
-- which *is* defensible, and it's getting lost behind other more
simplistic questions.
> Simplification is good.
Not always. The case has been oversimplified to "BSI sells things
that belong to Mythic", when in fact BSI merely *delivers* things
that belong to Mythic, within the boundaries Mythic has enforced,
and charges a delivery fee. This is not a complex idea, but if you
simplify it too much it becomes a whole different question.
Note that BSI works within *enforced* boundaries, not *established*
boundaries. Mythic has said from day one that you're not allowed to
sell accounts and items on auction sites, and BSI is clearly over
that line. One must naturally wonder how many other lines they cross
in the conduct of their business simply because "nobody was
looking".
> Does Blacksnow have a right to make promises it cannot deliver?
> There's a word for that.
Yes, but Blacksnow *does* have a right to make promises that it MAY
not deliver. It's called taking risks, and most businesses do it
every day.
> Ask this question: if Mythic's servers went down for a prolonged
> period of time (by choice or fate), could Blacksnow sue them for
> damages?
Of course not. Blacksnow is fundamentally a group of players, and
they could only sue to the extent that another subscriber could
sue. See below.
> Could the players who purchased the subscriptions sue Mythic?
Of course not. Mythic is very clear on the fact that the service
provided is not a "reliable" service, which is to say that maybe it
will not be available at certain times and if that happens then
tough.
I do, of course, expect that Mythic would not continue to charge
subscription fees while the servers are down. If they did that, hell
yeah the players could sue. You can't normally charge money for
something you aren't doing.
> A general principle of property transfer law, you can't transfer
> more rights to a property than you have.
But the only rights BSI transfers are the rights to use the item
within the game, and BSI theoretically has those rights (provided
the item has been obtained legitimately). With accounts, however,
BSI explicitly does *not* have the right to transfer them according
to the EULA -- so they're clearly over the line on that.
> I think you're correct about the guesswork. But I also don't
> think the questions about property and such would *ever* be
> examined in a dispute of this sort, at least not in the face of a
> clear and thorough EULA.
One of my major concerns is that people will miss the two-sided
nature of the issue. You're talking primarily from the standpoint of
transferring accounts between players, and I'm talking primarily
from the standpoint of transferring items between characters. I'm
seriously worried that the courts will ONLY address the issue of
accounts, and completely ignore the issue of inventory. As I said
above, BSI is *clearly* not allowed to transfer accounts, so the
case is open and shut and you can't sell them. That's a seductively
easy question, as opposed to the question of whether BSI is allowed
to transfer items.
Basically, there are a lot of pitfalls in this case that could lead
to players losing rights that *should* be protected. So we can't
transfer accounts, fine. That's sensible. Doesn't really bother
me. But when you start dictating what I can do *outside* the game, I
start to get annoyed.
>>> Disclaimer: I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.
>> I love legal humor.
> Hehe. I plead guilty to coming up with that one.
It actually takes a little legal training to really understand it,
and I just love that. The best jokes are understandable to everyone,
but particularly enjoyable to a select group.
> You know who comes up with all the lawyer jokes, right? Lawyers
> do. We've got an image to keep up. ;-)
I always thought the paralegals came up with the jokes and left them
on the lawyers' desks. ;)
> Disclaimer: I'm still not your lawyer.
Good, I have enough pets. :P
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted fred@clift.org
- Blacksnow revisted Stefan Ripperger
- Blacksnow revisted Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Blacksnow revisted Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Blacksnow revisted Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisted Kyle Leithoff
- Blacksnow revisted Christopher Allen
- Blacksnow revisted Stefan Ripperger
- Blacksnow revisted Fred Clift
- Blacksnow revisted Mike Shaver
- [Meta] EQ RPG Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- [Meta] EQ RPG Dave Rickey
- [Meta] EQ RPG Vincent Archer
- Blacksnow revisited John Robert Arras
- Blacksnow revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Blacksnow revisited Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Blacksnow revisited Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Blacksnow revisited Mike Mormando
- Blacksnow revisited Matt Mihaly
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG szii@sziisoft.com
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Rogue_Buddha
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Matt Mihaly
- Blacksnow revisited Robert A. Rice Jr.
- [PR] Skotos Releases Hegemony Strategic Game Christopher Allen
- Skotos Seven StoryBuilder Obstacles & Openings Christopher Allen
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) Joey Hess
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) Fred Clift
- NEWS: mooix beta 1 released (successor to perlmoo) F. Randall Farmer
- Prediction (Was: Quake II has gone GPL) T o F
- Emminent Wisdom Mike Povoski
- Emminent Wisdom shannona@skotos.net
- Schubert's law of player expections John Szeder
- Re Moved: [Meta] EQ RPG Jason Booth
- Money matters Jean, Yannick (îlot)
- Money matters eric rhea
- Alternatives to Permadeath Jon Leonard
- Alternatives to Permadeath Richard A. Bartle
- Alternatives to Permadeath Blane Bramble
- Alternatives to Permadeath szii@sziisoft.com
- Alternatives to Permadeath Casbaria
- Alternatives to Permadeath Mordengaard
- Alternatives to Permadeath Brian Bilek
- Alternatives to Permadeath Jason Booth
- Alternatives to Permadeath Richard A. Bartle
- Alternatives to Permadeath Sasha Hart
- Alternatives to Permadeath Travis Casey
- Alternatives to Permadeath T o F
- User-created content ownership Edward Glowacki
- User-created content ownership Zach Collins {Siege}
- User-created content ownership Christopher Allen
- User-created content ownership Richard A. Bartle
- User-created content ownership Christopher Allen
- User-created content ownership Sean Kelly
- User-created content ownership Richard A. Bartle
- User-created content ownership Blane Bramble
- User-created content ownership Jon Lambert
- Black Snow Revisited Jessica Mulligan
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Jeff Cole
- Black Snow Revisited Jeff Cole
- Black Snow Revisited ghovs
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Marian Griffith
- Black Snow Revisited John Buehler
- Black Snow Revisited Rudy Fink
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited ghovs
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Norman Short
- Black Snow Revisited Kristen L. Koster
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Norman Short
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Derek Licciardi
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Koster, Raph
- Black Snow Revisited Richard Woolcock
- Black Snow Revisited Derek Licciardi
- Black Snow Revisited Adam
- Black Snow Revisited Dan Merillat
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Jeremy Noetzelman
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Jeremy Noetzelman
- Black Snow Revisited Zach Collins {Siege}
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited John Robert Arras
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Jon Lambert
- Black Snow Revisited David H. Loeser Jr.
- Black Snow Revisited Brian Bilek
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Marian Griffith
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Conference of possible interest for commercial games Rayzam
- BIZ NEWS: Virtual kingdom richer than Bulgaria Kylotan
- HELP WANTED! Roger Hicks
- HELP WANTED! Shane Gough
- Black Snow Revisited Dave Rickey
- Black Snow Revisited Brad McQuaid
- Black Snow Revisited Leverett, William
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited amanda@alfar.com
- Black Snow Revisited Dr. Cat
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Jason Booth
- Black Snow Revisited Fred Clift
- Black Snow Revisited Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Black Snow Revisited Matt Mihaly
- Black Snow Revisited Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Black Snow Revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- GDC articles Koster, Raph
- GDC articles Koster, Raph
- TECH: Complex NPCs * * * * * *
- TECH: Complex NPCs Acius
- TECH: Complex NPCs Dave Rickey
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sasha Hart
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sean Kelly
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs John Robert Arras
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Rudy Neeser
- TECH: Complex NPCs Robert Zubek
- TECH: Complex NPCs Madrona Tree
- TECH: Complex NPCs tryguy74@hotmail.com
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sasha Hart
- TECH: Complex NPCs Sean Kelly
- More GDC Koster, Raph
- My GDC talks Koster, Raph
- My GDC talks Koster, Raph