October 2002
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Joe Andrieu
- terrain rendering (was: Future of MMOGs) Bruce Mitchener
- Furcadia improvement (was: Massive Online Gaming magazine) Zach Collins {Siege}
- MudWorld News ucmm@inetsolve.com
- Furcadia improvement Dr. Cat
- Furcadia improvement Ling Lo
- Inside the Serious Business of Online Gaming Michael Tresca
- Fw: [Nel] Would a complete gpl'ed and copylefted online gaming world be financialy succes? Valerio Santinelli
- Would a complete gpl'ed and copylefted online gaming world be financialy succes? Marc De Mesel
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Boyle, Paul
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Dave Rickey
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Dave Rickey
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Dave Rickey
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Rayzam
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Rayzam
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Rayzam
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Rayzam
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Casbaria
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Miroslav Silovic
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Koster, Raph
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players justice@softhome.net
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Roy Trubshaw
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Miroslav Silovic
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Crosbie Fitch
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Crosbie Fitch
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Freeman, Jeff
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players Richard A. Bartle
- In Real Life Matthew Dobervich
- Massive Online Game magazine Richard A. Bartle
- Massive Online Game magazine Dave Rickey
- 48 Hours Investigates Everquest Addiction Rayzam
- Massive Online Games Jessica Mulligan
- Massive Online Games Koster, Raph
- Wired Article on The Sims Online Rayzam
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Richard A. Bartle
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Richard A. Bartle
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) nyee@nickyee.com
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Koster, Raph
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Nicholas Yee
- Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model (was: 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Myst Online article at ferrago.co.uk Kent Peterson
- Myst Online article at ferrago.co.uk shren
- Myst Online article at ferrago.co.uk Rayzam
- Myst Online article at ferrago.co.uk Coyote
- Myst Online article at ferrago.co.uk Boyle, Paul
- Myst Online article at ferrago.co.uk shren
- Myst Online article at ferrago.co.uk Marc Bowden
- Myst Online article at ferrago.co.uk Ted L. Chen
- Myst Online article at ferrago.co.uk Sulka Haro
- Myst Online article at ferrago.co.uk DeyjaL@aol.com
- What is the world? (was: Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model) Zach Collins {Siege}
- What is the world? (was: Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- What is the world? (was: Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model) Zach Collins {Siege}
- What is the world? (was: Weaknesses in the HCDS player type model) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "On Virtual Economies" by Castronova Koster, Raph
- "On Virtual Economies" by Castronova Ted L. Chen
- "On Virtual Economies" by Castronova Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- "On Virtual Economies" by Castronova Ted L. Chen
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Brian Hook
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited brian hook
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited shren
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Brian Hook
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Paul Schwanz
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited shren
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Dave Rickey
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Michael Tresca
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Matt Mihaly
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Adam
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Matt Mihaly
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Matt Mihaly
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Michael Tresca
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Matt Mihaly
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Matt Mihaly
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Colin Coghill
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Koster, Raph
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ted L. Chen
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Sasha Hart
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ted L. Chen
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ted L. Chen
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ted L. Chen
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ted L. Chen
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Matt Mihaly
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited John Robert Arras
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ted L. Chen
John Robert Arras
> On 23 Oct 2002, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
>> Why not design a flexible world that allows designers to
>> rearrange the entire world, gameplay rules included? Then you can
>> massively improve the world and relaunch every six months...
> I think what you're talking about is algorithmic or procedural
> generation, which is something I am attempting to figure out right
> now. I hope that if the Myst MUD comes to be and if they really do
> strive for a new zone every week or so, that they invest in making
> some tools to automate this process.
Okay, my initial response to Ola was of the "heck nO!" variety (see
other post), but what you said here reminded me of Tradewars. It
might not be totally representative of a current MOG, but it did
have a regular reset interval specific by the BBS sysop.
The systems and links between those systems were always reorganized
on resets so that easily defendable nest you found in sector 325
might not be there in 6 months. The fun was indeed the early to
mid-game land-grab, before people could fortify and establish
themselves so well that only 007 could penetrate their impregnable
fortresses. ;)
I'm not sure how much this can apply to current MOGs though since
Tradewars did have a rather simplistic representation of the world
and a frighteningly low barrier to entry compared to today's
standards (30mins max per/day!?!) It's just something to throw out
there.
> This may start going off topic, tbut here is something else out
> there. It's been discussed here before as
> procedural/geometric/algorithmic area/zone/content
> generation. Instead of making a zone with 10 good ideas, you put
> those ideas into a pool and tell when those ideas get used, they
> get used when appropriate within zones that get created
> automatically. Instead of building 100 zones that each have 10
> ideas, these 1000 (probably much less due to overlap) ideas get
> put into a databank with rules when they get used, and a world is
> generated that will hopefully look decent.
> As an example, I like to have farms in my wilderness zones. Why
> not create as general a template as possible for a farm, and then
> once in a while if you create zones, you create a farm. The farm
> has all of its necessary components like the fields, the barns,
> the houses, the fenced areas, and each of those areas has details
> that can be used to create it such as objects and object
> placements, and the farmhouse can have rooms defined within it and
> the objects within those rooms and so forth.
> Then, you use some fractal/recursive algorithm that searches the
> tree of details being generated and creates a farm where you want
> it to. After that, when a person comes up with a good or unique
> idea for a farm, instead of making it once, this idea gets
> incorporated into the whole farm algorithm, so that it gets
> created at appropriate times from now on.
> I think I will get good results when I am able to come up with
> enough of these details that each area can have a few interesting
> things, but I won't have to be so repetitive across areas.
True, you get 1000 odd zones that aren't repetitive. But they are
still 'generic' and at some level, the it appears to be repetitive
to the human mind. Walk down any street in any city and you'll see
buildings that aren't repetitive. If you're paying attention, each
one has different combinations of features that set it apart from
the one next to it. But the end effect is that a row of individual
buildings is a row of buildings. Of course, there are exceptions to
the rule and those end up as landmarks.
Likewise, from zone generation algorithms, the usable
distinguishable set turns out to be much less. I'd probably say on
the order of a dozen or so. The more instances that a feature is
used, the less impact it has as a distinguishing characteristic.
For a RL analogy, look at the city of San Francisco, (look at the
Richmond first)
http://www.dreamworld.org/sfguide/Neighborhoods/Richmond/
All those pictures are of different street intersections. However,
each building in those streets do follow a common generation
algorithm (i.e. building codes, neighborhood styles, etc) and the
end effect is that all streets in Richmond look pretty much like one
another. The delta from one building to another on 8th street is
the same as that on 10th.
However, if you compare it Richmond with another neighborhood though
(say Chinatown for instance), which uses another set of algorithms,
then there's enough delta between streets from both sets that you
can see a difference.
Tying it back to the question at hand, I think it'd be more prudent
to either generalize your system up to the level of neighborhoods
(fewer nodes), or at least concentrate on providing game mechanics
on the level of neighborhoods instead of individual zones.
In Tradewars, all sectors can have some permutation of
links/planets/starbases. Those features are used everywhere so they
serve as little use as differentiators; to the player, a sector is a
sector. The true useful information is the meta-layer, the link
structure or neighborhood. There were many user-created programs
that analyzed the sector information and reported such things as
5-link dead-ends, 4-link dead ends, rings, etc. In a way, these
became the neighborhoods (the differentiating delta was their
accessibility) and the game always became a grab for those rare,
easily defended neighborhoods.
TLC - Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited John Robert Arras
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ted L. Chen
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited John Robert Arras
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited John Robert Arras
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Matt Mihaly
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Matt Mihaly
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Arnau Rosselló Castelló
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Clay
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Arnau Rosselló Castelló
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ted L. Chen
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Kestanan
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Edward Glowacki
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Matt Mihaly
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morphable worlds, Reset based systems revisited Leigh Stillard
- What's in the lack of a name? shren
- What's in the lack of a name? Rayzam
- What's in the lack of a name? Ted L. Chen
- What's in the lack of a name? shren
- What's in the lack of a name? Ted L. Chen
- What's in the lack of a name? Harrok
- What's in the lack of a name? shren
- What's in the lack of a name? Dan Wyman
- What's in the lack of a name? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- What's in the lack of a name? Damion Schubert
- What's in the lack of a name? Rudy Fink
- Gaining insight from playing MUDs (MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Stunning success and catastrophic failure for skills. Ideas needed! Britt Green
- Stunning success and catastrophic failure for skills. Ideas needed! shren
- Stunning success and catastrophic failure for skills. Ideas needed! Lars Duening
- Stunning success and catastrophic failure for skills. Ideas needed! Christopher Kohnert
- Stunning success and catastrophic failure for skills. Ideas needed! Edward Glowacki
- PKing minors Richard A. Bartle
- PKing minors Jon A. Lambert
- PKing minors Richard A. Bartle
- PKing minors Crosbie Fitch
- PKing minors Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- PKing minors Shane P. Lee
- PKing minors shren
- PKing minors Justyn
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs amanda@alfar.com
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs Ted L. Chen
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs amanda@alfar.com
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs Ted L. Chen
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs Koster, Raph
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs amanda@alfar.com
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs Ted L. Chen
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs amanda@alfar.com
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs Ted L. Chen
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs Amanda Walker
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs amanda@alfar.com
- [Meta] Future of MMOGs Damion Schubert
- Starting to play (was: Morphable worlds...) Tess Lowe
- [TECH] Windows Telnet capabilities Arnau Rosselló Castelló
- [TECH] Windows Telnet capabilities Matt Owen
- November Issue of the MUD Journal Sanvean
- November Issue of the MUD Journal Tamzen Cannoy