January 2002
- Toontown Koster, Raph
- FW: MMORPGs & MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- FW: MMORPGs & MUDs Skaei@aol.com
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Randolf Richardson
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Lars Duening
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms J C Lawrence
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Frank Crowell
- ADMIN: I goofed J C Lawrence
- Pueblo MUD client info Bruce Mitchener
- Pueblo MUD client info Piotr Banski
- Pueblo MUD client info Bruce Mitchener
- Pueblo MUD client info Mathieu Castelli
- Pueblo MUD client info William B. Taylor
- The MUD Companion Derek Snider
- Game animations Jon Lambert
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Joel Palmtag
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Mathieu Castelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Andrew Hefford
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL ling@slimy.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Bruce Mitchener
- Quake II has gone GPL Brian Hook
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Marc Hernandez
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Noplex
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Nicholas E. Walker
- Quake II has gone GPL Eli Stevens
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Dominic J. Eidson
- Quake II has gone GPL J C Lawrence
- Quake II has gone GPL Nicholas E. Walker
- Quake II has gone GPL J C Lawrence
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Travis Nixon
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Travis Nixon
- Quake II has gone GPL Joshua Judson Rosen
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL T o F
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL T o F
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Nathan F. Yospe
- Starting out. Joel Palmtag
- Starting out. Edward Glowacki
- Starting out. ghovs@plex.nl
- Starting out. Joel Palmtag
- Starting out. Lars Duening
- Starting out. J C Lawrence
- TECH: Managing all your code Eric Rhea
- TECH: Managing all your code Lars Duening
- TECH: Managing all your code J C Lawrence
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #1 63 - 25 msgs) Koster, Raph
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages William Murdick
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Jason Gauthier
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Acius
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Christopher Allen
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Eli Stevens
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Lazarus
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Matt Mihaly
- Two 'Mini-Series' Complete at Skotos Articles... Christopher Allen
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Luke Parrish
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Skaei@aol.com
- Replacement For MUD Acronym J C Lawrence
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Christopher Allen
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Matt Mihaly
- No bots allowed Frank Crowell
- No bots allowed J C Lawrence
- No bots allowed Alex Kay
- No bots allowed J C Lawrence
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed Travis Casey
- No bots allowed Roy Trubshaw
- No bots allowed Colin Coghill
- No bots allowed Marc Hernandez
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed Frank Crowell
- No bots allowed Marc Bowden
- No bots allowed Paul Schwanz
- Boys and Girls - rayzam
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michelle Elbert
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Nathan F. Yospe
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Alex Kay
- The use of virtual reality in the assessment of spatial skills J C Lawrence
- Boys and Girls - rayzam
- Boys and Girls - Marian Griffith
- Commercial web based MUDs Azeraab
- Commercial web based MUDs Peter Tyson
- Commercial web based MUDs J C Lawrence
- Commercial web based MUDs Peter Tyson
- Commercial web based MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Christopher Allen
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Dan Hon
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Matt Mihaly
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Talies the Wanderer
- [TECH] Eiffel and Assertions... Adam Martin
- [TECH] Eiffel and Assertions... Brian Hook
- text MUDs' character longevity (The Two Towers) Val Trullinger
- [TECH] PS: Eiffel and Assertions... Adam Martin
- GDC (was Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games) Sellers, Mike
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Travis Casey
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day volstoff@brutele.be
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day rayzam
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Koster, Raph
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? James Edward Gray II
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? Nicholas E. Walker
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? Luke Parrish
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? James Edward Gray II
- MUD statistics Elia Mörling
- MUD statistics Sanvean
- MUD statistics Matt Mihaly
- Secure distributed operation (was: Quake II has gone GPL) Nicholas E. Walker
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Adam Martin
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Jason Murdick
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Paul Schwanz
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Timothy Dang
- Crafting in MUDs Neil Edwards
- Econ paper on EQ Koster, Raph
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Jeff Freeman
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Michelle Elbert
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Freeman, Jeff
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Paul Schwanz
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Cynbe ru Taren
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Freeman, Jeff
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Miroslav Silovic
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Ola Fosheim [iso-8859-1] Grøstad wrote:
> Matt Mihaly wrote:
<snipped many references by Ola to how roleplayers can participate
in other mechanics by simply not roleplaying to do it. Roleplay
sometimes, don't roleplay other times with same avatar, or just play
an ooc avatar and a roleplaying avatar.>
I agree with that, yep.
>> I'm also not sure why you think a big political game = getting
>> the entire server killed off. Politics are quite important in
>> Achaea, and a political leader killing the server population off
>> isn't possible.
> Political game built on top of free form PvP is difficult to
> balance without intervention by the system or the admins.
What do you mean by free-form? Do you mean free-form as in the MUSH
kind of free-form PK, where it basically has to be consensual? Or do
you mean free-form as in you're provided with tools, and there are
not a lot of restrictions on the use of those tools to negatively
affect other players?
I don't have much experience with the former, but I can't imagine it
working out in a competitive environment. Achaea is the latter and
yes, it takes intervention by either the system or the admins but
that's just part of running a game.
>> Political games are also, I would say, extremely ill-suited for
>> roleplaying, becuase no one wants to roleplay someone stupid and
>> no one can roleplay someone more competent than they themselves
>> are.
> Many people enjoy roleplaying a stupid character. I can indeed
> project the image of someone competent and clever. Or adopt the
> feeling of being clever. Or trying to get the response from other
> people that suggest cleverness. If you are clever within your clan
> (of roleplayers) then you are per definition clever in that
> context even if the rest of the world perceive you as stupid.
Yeah, I should have been more clear. No one wants to handicap
himself when he or she is trying to be competitive (well, there may
be the odd person that does, but nearly nobody is willing to do so
in a really competitive environment). The most amusing roleplayer
I've seen in the last couple of years was someone pretending to be a
dumb, but eager-like-a-puppy troll.
> The problem with competition isn't that it is in conflict with
> roleplay, but that it attracts a type of players that will talk
> about mechanics and generally not be stimulating for RPers.
Well, that's not at all my experience, at least. Using physical
world politics as an analogy, the political system attracts people
who are prone to corruption, but it also helps to corrupt in and of
itself. It does this because it is so incredibly competitive. People
start sacrificing values to 'win', perhaps justifying it in the name
of "Well, I'll do a better job, if I can just win first." It's the
same with roleplaying in a competitive game. The system itself
exerts a downward pressure, and as more participants enter the
system, the carrot becomes larger, and the pressure to win at any
cost becomes larger.
I've seen it happen to great roleplayers. In fact, about 8 months
ago, we had a really tragic (for me) incident in Achaea where this
exact thing happened. Our best roleplayer, and a guy I had met at an
Achaea meet and really bonded with, was on the verge of being
offered an immortalhood or the opportunity to found a roleplay
council within Achaea. Almost everybody in the game, even his
enemies, respected him, because he was such an excellent
roleplayer. However, we then discovered that his winning entry in
the monthly Bardic contest had been plagiarized from a Pulitzer
Prize winning author. As one of the players discovered that it had
been borrowed (with some changes, but it was clearly a rip-off), we
didn't have a choice but to follow through with the promised
punishment, a permanent shrubbing.
I talked to the guy over e-mail before I condemned him, and asked
him why the hell he would do that. I was really really
disappointed. He was such a quality player. His reason (paraphrased)
was, "The competition got to me. I felt like I could do more for
Achaea by winning than anyone else could, so I justified it to
myself that way."
He didn't break roleplay to do it, but roleplay can be considered a
'value' like honesty. It takes work to stick to it, and it's often
easier, in straight achievement terms, to discard it. As the
competitive pressure mounts, more and more people will start
cheating on their values. It's a shame, but it's a nearly universal
phenomenon, as far as I can observe at least.
So yeah, I agree that PvP games do attract a larger percentage of
people not interested in roleplaying. At the same time though, as
PvP of any kind (not just combat) tends to be much more competitive
than PvE, the system itself makes it harder for people to stay true
to their roleplaying ideals.
>> No offence, but do you actually play any PvP MUDs seriously? They
>> are -not- well-suited for roleplaying, because they get so
>> incredibly competitive. The only MUDs I've played since about
>> 1994
> I currently only play EQ non-pvp, AO almost-non-pvp, but the
> problem isn't PvP but the players PvP tend to
> attract. I.e. players that don't talk and if they do it is either
> smack-talk or mechanics. However, the ability to affect is an
> asset for RP, might consider limited PvP (one kill per month) .
Remember that combat is merely one type of PvP. Turning on
playerkilling in EQ doesn't really make it a PvP game. It's still
fundamentally a loot and level game, but now it has player-killing.
>> I have nothing against roleplaying, by the way, and enjoy doing
>> it myself sometimes. I just see no reason at all to classify it
>> as a more advanced form of play.
> And I see no reason to object to such a characteristic. Which in
> fact is what has happened here, isn't it? Until proven wrong I
> simply assume that RP can add to and amplify the experience of any
> kind of playstyle. Thus is a higher level of sophistication. I
> want to see the counter arguments...
Well, I'd agree that it can add to or amplify many game experiences,
but that isn't the same thing as saying it is a more sophisticated
mode of play. 2 can be added onto any number to get a larger one,
but that doesn't mean it's larger than the number it was added
onto. That's not a great analogy, but maybe you see what I mean?
(Sorry, it's late.)
--matt
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MU Ds) Koster, Raph
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Dave Rickey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Dave Rickey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) John Buehler
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Tamzen Cannoy
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Miroslav Silovic
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Marian Griffith
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Jon Lambert
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Christopher Allen
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Christopher Allen
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Neil Edwards
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Edward Glowacki
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Amanda Walker
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Bruce Mitchener
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design J C Lawrence
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Valerio Santinelli
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Shane Gough
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Sean Kelly
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Adam Dray
- Some random thoughts on balance Azeraab
- Some random thoughts on balance Matt Mihaly
- Mud-Dev FAQ part II Marian Griffith
- Worlds of Carnage ( WoC ) blobule@hotmail.com
- Worlds of Carnage ( WoC ) blobule@hotmail.com
- Worlds of Carnage ( WoC ) Blobule@hotmail.com
- Simutronics' premium server Matt Mihaly
- Simutronics' premium server Christopher Allen
- Simutronics' premium server Michael Dekker
- Simutronics' premium server Matt Mihaly
- Simutronics' premium server Martin
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Brian Hook
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Michelle Elbert
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Michael Tresca
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Freeman, Jeff
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Paul Schwanz
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Travis Nixon
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Brian Hook
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Amanda Walker
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Sasha Hart
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" fred@clift.org
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Marc Bowden
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Christopher Allen
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Matt Mihaly
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Skaei@aol.com
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Alex Kay
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" rayzam
- Boys and Paul Schwanz
- Boys and Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls Marc Bowden
- Chess ("Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs)) James Edward Gray II
- Chess ("Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs)) Cynbe ru Taren
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? rayzam
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? rayzam
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? rayzam
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Jon Lambert
- BIZ amusing idea (Enforced log out aka "real sleep") Nicholas E. Walker
- BIZ amusing idea (Enforced log out aka "real sleep") Valerio Santinelli