January 2002
- Toontown Koster, Raph
- FW: MMORPGs & MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- FW: MMORPGs & MUDs Skaei@aol.com
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Randolf Richardson
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Lars Duening
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms J C Lawrence
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Frank Crowell
- ADMIN: I goofed J C Lawrence
- Pueblo MUD client info Bruce Mitchener
- Pueblo MUD client info Piotr Banski
- Pueblo MUD client info Bruce Mitchener
- Pueblo MUD client info Mathieu Castelli
- Pueblo MUD client info William B. Taylor
- The MUD Companion Derek Snider
- Game animations Jon Lambert
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Joel Palmtag
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Mathieu Castelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Andrew Hefford
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL ling@slimy.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Bruce Mitchener
- Quake II has gone GPL Brian Hook
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Marc Hernandez
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Noplex
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Nicholas E. Walker
- Quake II has gone GPL Eli Stevens
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Dominic J. Eidson
- Quake II has gone GPL J C Lawrence
- Quake II has gone GPL Nicholas E. Walker
- Quake II has gone GPL J C Lawrence
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Travis Nixon
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Travis Nixon
- Quake II has gone GPL Joshua Judson Rosen
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL T o F
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL T o F
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Nathan F. Yospe
- Starting out. Joel Palmtag
- Starting out. Edward Glowacki
- Starting out. ghovs@plex.nl
- Starting out. Joel Palmtag
- Starting out. Lars Duening
- Starting out. J C Lawrence
- TECH: Managing all your code Eric Rhea
- TECH: Managing all your code Lars Duening
- TECH: Managing all your code J C Lawrence
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #1 63 - 25 msgs) Koster, Raph
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages William Murdick
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Jason Gauthier
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Acius
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Christopher Allen
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Eli Stevens
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:58:41 -0600
Eli Stevens <listsub@wickedgrey.com> wrote:
> From: "J C Lawrence" <claw@kanga.nu>
>> Quite. Language choice is almost uninteresting in comparison to
>> how you expose the function to the language and to its users.
>> Witness the fact that I'm still getting asked about exactly how
>> spoofs worked -- despite the fact that they are a singularly and
>> obviously Bad Idea from the get go.
> Well, crap.
Ooops.
> What exactly do you mean by "singularly and obviously Bad Idea"?
Essentially spoofs are an abstraction model. They allow an objects
interfaces to be layered by putting an abstraction over the top of
it which adapts/changes the base objects behaviour in some manner.
More simply: They increase the call tree depth.
This is not a problem when its done once. It is a problem when its
done twenty times or more on a significant percentage of your items.
Spoofs did what I wanted them to. They allowed free user
programming such that a user could create/write a feature without
requiring write access to any other objects to do so. The problem
is that spoofs are attractive and easily used for a much wider
variety of problems and the tendency, especially with user
programmers, or merely lazy scripters is to use them everywhere.
And then not to (sufficiently) aggressively clean them up or norm
them into the base object code afterward.
Short story: Massive performance drain.
If you can establish and maintain the discipline needed to use
spoofs judiciously and to aggressively clean up after them and if
possible norm their code into the base objects, then I don't see an
intrinsic problem with the model. They're a hack, but a very useful
hack as long as its well contained.
I couldn't contain them in my model.
> It seems that by using a mechanism that accomplished the same
> effect you can make a quite flexible and interesting system.
Absolutely.
> My current senior capstone project is based around all in-game
> objects being inert except as enabled by Behaviors that get added
> to the object, changing how it reacts to events (taking the place
> of spoofs).
The problem is not in the concept of self or external object
behavour mutation, but in its implementation via abstraction
models. Bad.
It may have been better to allow write access into an object's
method call tree, but I didn't want to do that for reasons of bad
transparency and difficulty in logically consistent rollbacks in
case of trouble. Looking at it now, if I'd allowed write access to
the call tree and put an in-object transactional logging system
which internally implemented rollbacks without adding expense to
method lookups...that may have both worked and not been such a Bad
Idea. Thinking about it now, that could have worked.
Well, except that it breaks the validated-object
semantics I added later (by default user objects and their spawned
spoofs were unvalidated and could only affect unvalidated objects,
thus preventing arbitrary users creating ad-hoc
VorpalSwordsOfDoom to kill Smaug and thus render GoP games void)
> If the whole idea is bunk...
Nahh, just the implementation and the fact that at heart it is a
cheat around writing the object tree the way you wanted it the first
time. Its really the hackish qualities that made it so bad.
> As it stands, I expect (which has just been thrown into doubt)
> that we will be able to implement all of JCLs scenarios with what
> we have.
The base spoof scenarios are the Elven Forest and the Magic Sack Of
Hiding (or something like that for the last one) IIRC.
> To illustrate, the professor keeps telling us to include a section
> in our paper on the similarities between online FPSs and text
> mudding.
There's a fair bit of group mechanics which the two share, from the
four suits to clans and behaviour manipulation strategies.
--
J C Lawrence
---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh?
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Lazarus
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Matt Mihaly
- Two 'Mini-Series' Complete at Skotos Articles... Christopher Allen
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Luke Parrish
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Skaei@aol.com
- Replacement For MUD Acronym J C Lawrence
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Christopher Allen
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Matt Mihaly
- No bots allowed Frank Crowell
- No bots allowed J C Lawrence
- No bots allowed Alex Kay
- No bots allowed J C Lawrence
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed Travis Casey
- No bots allowed Roy Trubshaw
- No bots allowed Colin Coghill
- No bots allowed Marc Hernandez
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed Frank Crowell
- No bots allowed Marc Bowden
- No bots allowed Paul Schwanz
- Boys and Girls - rayzam
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michelle Elbert
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Nathan F. Yospe
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Alex Kay
- The use of virtual reality in the assessment of spatial skills J C Lawrence
- Boys and Girls - rayzam
- Boys and Girls - Marian Griffith
- Commercial web based MUDs Azeraab
- Commercial web based MUDs Peter Tyson
- Commercial web based MUDs J C Lawrence
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- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Dan Hon
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- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Talies the Wanderer
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- [TECH] Eiffel and Assertions... Brian Hook
- text MUDs' character longevity (The Two Towers) Val Trullinger
- [TECH] PS: Eiffel and Assertions... Adam Martin
- GDC (was Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games) Sellers, Mike
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
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- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
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- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
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- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? James Edward Gray II
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? Nicholas E. Walker
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? Luke Parrish
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- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Jeff Freeman
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
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- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
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- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Paul Schwanz
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- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Cynbe ru Taren
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- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
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- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Dave Rickey
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- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Dave Rickey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) John Buehler
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- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Christopher Allen
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- Worlds of Carnage ( WoC ) Blobule@hotmail.com
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- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Paul Schwanz
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- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Brian Hook
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- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Sasha Hart
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" fred@clift.org
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Marc Bowden
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- Boys and Paul Schwanz
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- Boys and Girls Marc Bowden
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