January 2002
- Toontown Koster, Raph
- FW: MMORPGs & MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- FW: MMORPGs & MUDs Skaei@aol.com
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Randolf Richardson
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Lars Duening
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms J C Lawrence
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Frank Crowell
- ADMIN: I goofed J C Lawrence
- Pueblo MUD client info Bruce Mitchener
- Pueblo MUD client info Piotr Banski
- Pueblo MUD client info Bruce Mitchener
- Pueblo MUD client info Mathieu Castelli
- Pueblo MUD client info William B. Taylor
- The MUD Companion Derek Snider
- Game animations Jon Lambert
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Joel Palmtag
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Mathieu Castelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Andrew Hefford
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL ling@slimy.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Bruce Mitchener
- Quake II has gone GPL Brian Hook
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Marc Hernandez
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Noplex
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Nicholas E. Walker
- Quake II has gone GPL Eli Stevens
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Dominic J. Eidson
- Quake II has gone GPL J C Lawrence
- Quake II has gone GPL Nicholas E. Walker
- Quake II has gone GPL J C Lawrence
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Travis Nixon
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Travis Nixon
- Quake II has gone GPL Joshua Judson Rosen
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL T o F
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL T o F
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Nathan F. Yospe
- Starting out. Joel Palmtag
- Starting out. Edward Glowacki
- Starting out. ghovs@plex.nl
- Starting out. Joel Palmtag
- Starting out. Lars Duening
- Starting out. J C Lawrence
- TECH: Managing all your code Eric Rhea
- TECH: Managing all your code Lars Duening
- TECH: Managing all your code J C Lawrence
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #1 63 - 25 msgs) Koster, Raph
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages William Murdick
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Jason Gauthier
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Acius
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Christopher Allen
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Eli Stevens
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Lazarus
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Matt Mihaly
- Two 'Mini-Series' Complete at Skotos Articles... Christopher Allen
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Luke Parrish
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Skaei@aol.com
- Replacement For MUD Acronym J C Lawrence
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Christopher Allen
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Matt Mihaly
- No bots allowed Frank Crowell
- No bots allowed J C Lawrence
- No bots allowed Alex Kay
- No bots allowed J C Lawrence
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed Travis Casey
- No bots allowed Roy Trubshaw
- No bots allowed Colin Coghill
- No bots allowed Marc Hernandez
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed Frank Crowell
- No bots allowed Marc Bowden
- No bots allowed Paul Schwanz
- Boys and Girls - rayzam
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michelle Elbert
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Nathan F. Yospe
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Alex Kay
- The use of virtual reality in the assessment of spatial skills J C Lawrence
- Boys and Girls - rayzam
- Boys and Girls - Marian Griffith
- Commercial web based MUDs Azeraab
- Commercial web based MUDs Peter Tyson
- Commercial web based MUDs J C Lawrence
- Commercial web based MUDs Peter Tyson
- Commercial web based MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Christopher Allen
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Dan Hon
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Matt Mihaly
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Talies the Wanderer
- [TECH] Eiffel and Assertions... Adam Martin
- [TECH] Eiffel and Assertions... Brian Hook
- text MUDs' character longevity (The Two Towers) Val Trullinger
- [TECH] PS: Eiffel and Assertions... Adam Martin
- GDC (was Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games) Sellers, Mike
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Travis Casey
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day volstoff@brutele.be
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day rayzam
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Koster, Raph
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? James Edward Gray II
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? Nicholas E. Walker
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? Luke Parrish
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? James Edward Gray II
- MUD statistics Elia Mörling
- MUD statistics Sanvean
- MUD statistics Matt Mihaly
- Secure distributed operation (was: Quake II has gone GPL) Nicholas E. Walker
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Adam Martin
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Jason Murdick
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Paul Schwanz
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Timothy Dang
- Crafting in MUDs Neil Edwards
- Econ paper on EQ Koster, Raph
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Jeff Freeman
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Michelle Elbert
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Freeman, Jeff
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Paul Schwanz
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Cynbe ru Taren
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Freeman, Jeff
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Miroslav Silovic
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Ola Fosheim [iso-8859-1] Grøstad wrote:
> Matt Mihaly wrote:
> Oh come on, mud-dev'ers discuss the obvious all the time. ;>
That's true!
>> I'm not sure why using the game in ways it hasn't been designed
>> for is a sign of an advanced gamer. If I take a chess board and
>> start throwing the pieces across the room (using it in a way it
>> wasn't intended) that hardly makes me an advanced chess
>> player. It just makes me a person who enjoys chess in a different
>> way.
> Horrible analogy. First of all you would not be a chessplayer at
> all. RPGs are marketed as rollplay and a fictional experience,
> the first one is pretty much a hamsterwheel where the designers
> are in control. All you have to do is follow the path, in
> excellent roleplay you become a co-author and still get to do
> everything that other players get to do. You do it with a level
> of sophistication and you get to do more.
I'd say you get a level of sophistication one down, because you've
hamstrung your ability to really explore the tactical nature of the
game. In Achaea, for instance, you can't even really discuss a lot
of combat and whatnot in-role, because there has to be too many
references to out-of-character concepts.
As for the hamsterwheel, well, not in any MUD I design or play. We
create worlds, and people then go ahead and reside in them. We don't
provide single all-encompassing goals of "Getting the highest level"
or whatnot. Level isn't even particularly important.
> (You seem to assume the chess is an advanced game, which is pretty
> much a cultural idea. It actually is a pretty rigid and limited
> pattern matching game)
Chess is an advanced game insofar as its strategies are extremely
deep.
> There is no reason for not doing any of those activities in a
> roleacting mentality. Especially political games are very well
> suited for roleacting, you get to maximize drama. But no MMO have
> any great political game built in, and probably will not have it
> either. Because, if you do, you risk getting the entire server
> killed off, which seemed to happen on some Meridian server. MMOs
> are static by designphilosophy.
I didn't realize you were limiting it just to big graphical games. I
was talking about MUDs generally.
I'm also not sure why you think a big political game = getting the
entire server killed off. Politics are quite important in Achaea,
and a political leader killing the server population off isn't
possible.
Political games are also, I would say, extremely ill-suited for
roleplaying, becuase no one wants to roleplay someone stupid and no
one can roleplay someone more competent than they themselves are. In
any competitive environment, people are going to want to win, and
politics are nothing if not competitive. Mihaly's Law of Competition
and Roleplaying says, "The greater the level of competition between
players, the lower the level of roleplaying. This is because
roleplaying is about process, while competition motivates one to aim
for results. The more competition there is, the more results trump
process."
The result of this means that people are going to play the political
game to the end of -their- abilities, not to the end of their
character's abilities. Since you can't roleplay someone wittier or
more clever than yourself, and since people will inevitably use all
their personal abilities to win, you end up with roleplaying being
almost impossible if you want to win (and most people do). Sure,
maybe they can talk in some ridiculous fake "accent", but it's got
little to do with adopting a role and playing it faithfully.
> You dont really have any sophisticated PvP combat either, it is
> very much a simple optimization or twitch thing. And even then,
> PvP is a great source for roleacting and roleacting adds another
> layer to that experience as well.
No offence, but do you actually play any PvP MUDs seriously? They
are -not- well-suited for roleplaying, because they get so
incredibly competitive. The only MUDs I've played since about 1994
are heavily PvP MUDs, and I have to say, while occasionally you get
people who can roleplay well while engaging in PvP, generally the
sheer competition drives people to cast aside everything that
doesn't work to help them win.
> Actually, formally all you need is some kind of ordering involving
> A and B. You dont need a continuum.
Yes, you're right. That's really what I should have said. If the
ordering isn't based on any objective criteria though, then you're
just stating a preference.
> Actually, we were talking production of experience. I can agree
> with you to some extent, but only because and advanced consumer of
> fiction is productive. I.e. she makes an interpretation.
Whether you're roleplaying or not, the minute you talk to another
player, you are a producer of content. Roleplaying is merely another
kind of content, like just chatting OOC to another player. I'm not
going to comment on whether it's more advanced or not, but if I had
to choose between the two, I'd much rather have my players chatting
OOC to each other than roleplaying with each other (I'd rather have
both, as some prefer one, some prefer the other). The community
bonds it builds are far more powerful that way.
> You got too hung up on your assumptions about one dimensional
> continuum. Now, who is the gourmet: a person that cant be
> bothered to taste and smell (or even chew), or one that does and
> also add spice and atmosphere to the dinner?
See my comments above. Talking about people's physical lives builds
more powerful bonds. It is more meaningful communication and there
is simply a much larger range of topics to chat about. The beauty of
the physical world is that it's an incredibly deep and broad world
with lots of common reference points. It doesn't make any sense, to
me, to say that adopting a fake persona and talking about the king's
valet's cousin's wife's brother-in-law's famous sword Godslayer is a
somehow more 'advanced' activity than talking about what's going on
in your life.
I have nothing against roleplaying, by the way, and enjoy doing it
myself sometimes. I just see no reason at all to classify it as a
more advanced form of play.
--matt - "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MU Ds) Koster, Raph
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Dave Rickey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Dave Rickey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) John Buehler
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Tamzen Cannoy
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Miroslav Silovic
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Marian Griffith
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Jon Lambert
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Christopher Allen
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Christopher Allen
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Neil Edwards
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Edward Glowacki
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Amanda Walker
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Bruce Mitchener
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design J C Lawrence
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Valerio Santinelli
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Shane Gough
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Sean Kelly
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Adam Dray
- Some random thoughts on balance Azeraab
- Some random thoughts on balance Matt Mihaly
- Mud-Dev FAQ part II Marian Griffith
- Worlds of Carnage ( WoC ) blobule@hotmail.com
- Worlds of Carnage ( WoC ) blobule@hotmail.com
- Worlds of Carnage ( WoC ) Blobule@hotmail.com
- Simutronics' premium server Matt Mihaly
- Simutronics' premium server Christopher Allen
- Simutronics' premium server Michael Dekker
- Simutronics' premium server Matt Mihaly
- Simutronics' premium server Martin
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Brian Hook
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Michelle Elbert
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Michael Tresca
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Freeman, Jeff
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Paul Schwanz
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Travis Nixon
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Brian Hook
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Amanda Walker
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Sasha Hart
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" fred@clift.org
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Marc Bowden
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Christopher Allen
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Matt Mihaly
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Skaei@aol.com
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Alex Kay
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" rayzam
- Boys and Paul Schwanz
- Boys and Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls Marc Bowden
- Chess ("Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs)) James Edward Gray II
- Chess ("Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs)) Cynbe ru Taren
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? rayzam
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? rayzam
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? rayzam
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Jon Lambert
- BIZ amusing idea (Enforced log out aka "real sleep") Nicholas E. Walker
- BIZ amusing idea (Enforced log out aka "real sleep") Valerio Santinelli