January 2002
- Toontown Koster, Raph
- FW: MMORPGs & MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- FW: MMORPGs & MUDs Skaei@aol.com
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Randolf Richardson
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Lars Duening
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms J C Lawrence
- DGN: Question about MU* acronyms Frank Crowell
- ADMIN: I goofed J C Lawrence
- Pueblo MUD client info Bruce Mitchener
- Pueblo MUD client info Piotr Banski
- Pueblo MUD client info Bruce Mitchener
- Pueblo MUD client info Mathieu Castelli
- Pueblo MUD client info William B. Taylor
- The MUD Companion Derek Snider
- Game animations Jon Lambert
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Joel Palmtag
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Mathieu Castelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Andrew Hefford
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL ling@slimy.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Bruce Mitchener
- Quake II has gone GPL Brian Hook
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Marc Hernandez
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Noplex
- Quake II has gone GPL Jeremy Noetzelman
- Quake II has gone GPL Nicholas E. Walker
- Quake II has gone GPL Eli Stevens
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Dominic J. Eidson
- Quake II has gone GPL J C Lawrence
- Quake II has gone GPL Nicholas E. Walker
- Quake II has gone GPL J C Lawrence
- Quake II has gone GPL Frank Crowell
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Travis Nixon
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL Valerio Santinelli
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Travis Nixon
- Quake II has gone GPL Joshua Judson Rosen
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL T o F
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quake II has gone GPL John Buehler
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL T o F
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL shren
- Quake II has gone GPL Vincent Archer
- Quake II has gone GPL Nathan F. Yospe
- Starting out. Joel Palmtag
- Starting out. Edward Glowacki
- Starting out. ghovs@plex.nl
- Starting out. Joel Palmtag
- Starting out. Lars Duening
- Starting out. J C Lawrence
- TECH: Managing all your code Eric Rhea
- TECH: Managing all your code Lars Duening
- TECH: Managing all your code J C Lawrence
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #1 63 - 25 msgs) Koster, Raph
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages William Murdick
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Jason Gauthier
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Acius
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Christopher Allen
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Eli Stevens
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages J C Lawrence
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Lazarus
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MOBPROG and other scripting languages Matt Mihaly
- Two 'Mini-Series' Complete at Skotos Articles... Christopher Allen
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Luke Parrish
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Skaei@aol.com
- Replacement For MUD Acronym J C Lawrence
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Christopher Allen
- Replacement For MUD Acronym Matt Mihaly
- No bots allowed Frank Crowell
- No bots allowed J C Lawrence
- No bots allowed Alex Kay
- No bots allowed J C Lawrence
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed Travis Casey
- No bots allowed Roy Trubshaw
- No bots allowed Colin Coghill
- No bots allowed Marc Hernandez
- No bots allowed shren
- No bots allowed Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- No bots allowed Frank Crowell
- No bots allowed Marc Bowden
- No bots allowed Paul Schwanz
- Boys and Girls - rayzam
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michelle Elbert
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Nathan F. Yospe
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- Issue of the "Experience" (Was MMORPGs & MUDs) Alex Kay
- The use of virtual reality in the assessment of spatial skills J C Lawrence
- Boys and Girls - rayzam
- Boys and Girls - Marian Griffith
- Commercial web based MUDs Azeraab
- Commercial web based MUDs Peter Tyson
- Commercial web based MUDs J C Lawrence
- Commercial web based MUDs Peter Tyson
- Commercial web based MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Christopher Allen
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Dan Hon
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Matt Mihaly
- Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games Talies the Wanderer
- [TECH] Eiffel and Assertions... Adam Martin
- [TECH] Eiffel and Assertions... Brian Hook
- text MUDs' character longevity (The Two Towers) Val Trullinger
- [TECH] PS: Eiffel and Assertions... Adam Martin
- GDC (was Majestic and Failure of Episodic Games) Sellers, Mike
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Travis Casey
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day volstoff@brutele.be
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day rayzam
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Koster, Raph
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day John Buehler
- Finding What a Gamer Lacks in Their Day Sasha Hart
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? James Edward Gray II
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? Nicholas E. Walker
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? Luke Parrish
- TECH: What about Perl flavored MUDs? James Edward Gray II
- MUD statistics Elia Mörling
- MUD statistics Sanvean
- MUD statistics Matt Mihaly
- Secure distributed operation (was: Quake II has gone GPL) Nicholas E. Walker
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Adam Martin
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Jason Murdick
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Paul Schwanz
- Economic Growth: NPC pricing Timothy Dang
- Crafting in MUDs Neil Edwards
- Econ paper on EQ Koster, Raph
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Jeff Freeman
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Michelle Elbert
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Freeman, Jeff
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Paul Schwanz
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Cynbe ru Taren
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Freeman, Jeff
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Miroslav Silovic
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MU Ds) Koster, Raph
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Dave Rickey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Dave Rickey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) John Buehler
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Tamzen Cannoy
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Miroslav Silovic
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Marian Griffith
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Jon Lambert
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Christopher Allen
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORP Gs & MUDs) Christopher Allen
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Neil Edwards
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Edward Glowacki
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Amanda Walker
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Bruce Mitchener
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design J C Lawrence
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Valerio Santinelli
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Shane Gough
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Sean Kelly
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Creating a MUD - Overview of design Adam Dray
- Some random thoughts on balance Azeraab
- Some random thoughts on balance Matt Mihaly
On Fri, 25 Jan 2002, Azeraab wrote:
> The PvE game, by it's very nature, is unbalanced.
Define what you mean by balance? It's not clear.
> Like a single player game, while there may be setbacks, eventually
> the player will "win."
That is dependent on the game design. A PvE game where the player
"loses" would be easy to do. It's not a function of being a PvE
game.
> PvE is not a competitive activity, but episodic entertainment,
> much like a sitcom.
PvE is most certainly a competitive activity. You're either
competing against yourself and/or against the system and/or against
other players. Ever notice the bragging rights players feel entitled
to if they aer the first to a new level, for instance? Or the first
to do a new quest?
> When you watch Gillgan's Island > you know the castaways arent
> going to succeed in getting off the > island, much the way you
> know you are going to win when you battle > an Orc in whatever
> game you are playing. No true competition > exists.
Oh, it most certainly does. You're looking at a player vs. orc in a
very limited way, and ignoring the context in which the battle takes
place. If you ignore the context of the larger game then sure, there
isn't much real competition involved in the single battle of player
vs. orc, but you're also not talking about MUDs in that case, as
they involve other players and a larger context.
> But winning every time isnt fun either. Players demand some sort
> of fake competition, a chance to lose. If they win 100% of the
> time they will be as unhappy as if they never win. PvE only works
> properly if it is imbalanced. But players who excel at the game
> quickly find PvE to be utterly unchallenging and boring. The
> players who are not the best at the game will tire of PvE as well,
> just not as quickly.
I'm not sure what you mean by imbalanced. It's hardly a scientific
term, but when most people in MUDs talk about balance, it's to refer
to the relative capabilities of various groups (classes, races,
etc).
I also don't think that your statement reflects reality. The many
people who spend thousands of hours playing PvE games like
Everquest, in which you mainly just bash monsters, do not seem to
"quickly" find PvE to be utterly unchallenging and boring. 20+ years
of MUD history seems to say that PvE is quite enjoyable to many
people.
> The PvP game, is balanced.
> It is a zero sum game. For everyone who wins, there is someone
> who loses. It is balanced.
That's a pretty limited way to look at balance. In Achaea, for
instance, whether PK is a net-negative, net-zero, or net-positive
game depends on how you define balance, and what elements you are
weighing.
You CAN simply look at "Who killed the other person." but that's a
simplistic way to look at PK, and doesn't reflect what's really
going on. In that sense though, yes, Achaea's PK, for instance, is a
zero sum game.
On the other hand, that's not how players look at PK, and thus as
far as I'm concerned, that's a fallacious description of PK. I could
choose to look at experience gain and loss, and comparing them as a
definition of 'balanced.' In that case, PK in Achaea is a net
negative sum game.
Or, perhaps I'd look at whether it is balanced in the sense of
"fun." In this sense it could be a negative, zero, or positive sum
game, depending on the exact situation. If neither player enjoyed
the combat at all, it was probably a negative sum game. If one
really did, and one equally did not (a pretty unlikely case, and
pretty darn hard to measure in any case) then it could be a zero sum
game. I, of course, prefer to look at it as a positive sum
game. Both players hopefully had fun. That's the ideal. Everybody
wins.
Of course, there are any number of other ways you could look at PK
"balance" in the sense that you're using it.
> Players automatically gravitate away from things that are
> ineffective to the few most effective things, and eventually the
> single best thing, the final balance being total equality. This
> gravitation does not necessarily occur in the PvE game because by
> separating the basic functions of combat (dealing damage, healing,
> taking damage, etc) among a group of players you can create a
> number of equally essential roles.
Again, I think that's an unwarrantedly simplistic view of balance.
> The pvp system only works properly if it is balanced. But players
> do not want to win 50% of the time, they want to win more often
> than not, and they are extremely unhappy if they lose more often
> than they win. So the better players enjoy pvp and may never tire
> of it slowly, while the poor players hate it and leave quickly.
You know, when I used to play online Quake, I used to lose almost
every time I played. I played a LOT though. Mainly, I just enjoyed
using the grappling hook (I think it was some sort of mod?) to get
into weird places where I could get a rocket shot off. I always
found it extremely amusing to do that, even if I inevitably got
blown up a few times before getting into another such spot.
Winning isn't everything to every player, and what constitutes
"winning" is entirely subjective. The notion of winning requires, it
seems to me, some sort of goal to reach. That goal could be fixed or
relative. What that goal is can't be defined by other people unless
you choose to accept it though. For instance, let's say we are
playing Achaea, and we go at it. Let's say you are an uber-combatant
with knowledge of every detail of our combat system, whereas I am a
happy-go-lucky druid who mainly enjoys lots of nekkid forest
orgies. When we fight, you might consider a 'win' for you to be
killing me. I might consider a 'win' for me to be simply lasting 10
seconds against you, or maybe just fondling you a few times while
you kill me.
Winning is a state of mind.
> Building a PvP game on top of a PvE game is a mistake. To take
> something that is inherently imbalanced and try to to make it
> balanced isnt going to work. Creating a balanced PvP system, then
> introducing MOBs to it with the abilities of the mobs being
> unbalanced will be much more successful.
I'd like to comment on this, but I still don't really understand how
you're using the term balance. It's not clear.
--matt
- Some random thoughts on balance Matt Mihaly
- Mud-Dev FAQ part II Marian Griffith
- Worlds of Carnage ( WoC ) blobule@hotmail.com
- Worlds of Carnage ( WoC ) blobule@hotmail.com
- Worlds of Carnage ( WoC ) Blobule@hotmail.com
- Simutronics' premium server Matt Mihaly
- Simutronics' premium server Christopher Allen
- Simutronics' premium server Michael Dekker
- Simutronics' premium server Matt Mihaly
- Simutronics' premium server Martin
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Brian Hook
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Michelle Elbert
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Michael Tresca
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Freeman, Jeff
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Paul Schwanz
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Travis Nixon
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Brian Hook
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Amanda Walker
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Sasha Hart
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" fred@clift.org
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Marc Bowden
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Christopher Allen
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Matt Mihaly
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Skaei@aol.com
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" Alex Kay
- Enforced log out aka "real sleep" rayzam
- Boys and Paul Schwanz
- Boys and Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls Marc Bowden
- Chess ("Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs)) James Edward Gray II
- Chess ("Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs)) Cynbe ru Taren
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? rayzam
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? rayzam
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? rayzam
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? Jon Lambert
- BIZ amusing idea (Enforced log out aka "real sleep") Nicholas E. Walker
- BIZ amusing idea (Enforced log out aka "real sleep") Valerio Santinelli