September 2001
- Strix: Object Persistence on Relational Backends Ling Lo
- Structured Social Play John Buehler
- Structured Social Play Tom Hubina
- Structured Social Play Christopher Allen
- Structured Social Play Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Structured Social Play Daniel Bendiksen
- Structured Social Play Tamzen Cannoy
- Structured Social Play Robin Lee Powell
- Structured Social Play Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Structured Social Play Travis Casey
- Structured Social Play Robin Lee Powell
- Structured Social Play Christopher Allen
- Structured Social Play Koster, Raph
- Structured Social Play Matthew D. Fuller
- Structured Social Play Bruce Mitchener
- Structured Social Play Takis Kalogiratos
- Structured Social Play shren
- Structured Social Play Daniel Bendiksen
- Structured Social Play shren
- Structured Social Play Matt Owen
- Structured Social Play Bruce Mitchener
- Structured Social Play Vincent Archer
- Structured Social Play shren
- Structured Social Play Daniel Bendiksen
- Structured Social Play Vincent Archer
- Structured Social Play John Buehler
- Structured Social Play Matt Mihaly
- Structured Social Play Marian Griffith
- Structured Social Play Travis Nixon
- NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Kylotan
- [BIZ] Billing systems Brian Hook
- [BIZ] Billing systems Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Billing systems Christopher Allen
- [BIZ] Billing systems Brian Hook
- [BIZ] Billing systems Christopher Allen
- [BIZ] Billing systems Kevin Littlejohn
- [BIZ] Billing systems Travis Nixon
- [BIZ] Billing systems Brian Hook
- [BIZ] Billing systems Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [BIZ] Billing systems Owen
- [BIZ] Billing systems Jussi 'Sulka' Haro
- [BIZ] Billing systems Peter Tyson
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Benchmarking MUDs Bruce Mitchener
- Benchmarking MUDs Lars Duening
- Benchmarking MUDs Adam Martin
- Benchmarking MUDs Robin Lee Powell
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Adam Martin
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Ian Collyer
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Adam Martin
- Benchmarking MUDs Jon Lambert
- Free Time != Advancement (was: Structured Social Play) Eli Stevens
- Random American Name Generator (!) Ling Lo
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Brian Hook
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Christopher Allen
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Derek Licciardi
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Sean K
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Ent ertainment announces World of Warcraft Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Updated my site Koster, Raph
- Vircom T4C Brian Hook
- Vircom T4C Valerio Santinelli
- Preference for host OS Brian Hook
- Preference for host OS Jon Leonard
- Preference for host OS Bruce Mitchener
- Preference for host OS brandon@roguetrader.com
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS Jeremy Noetzelman
- Preference for host OS Fred Clift
- Preference for host OS Travis Casey
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS Travis Casey
- Preference for host OS Sean K
- Preference for host OS Vincent Archer
- Preference for host OS Phillip Lenhardt
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS Brian Hook
- Preference for host OS Brian Tackett
- Preference for host OS Jon Lambert
- Preference for host OS David Loeser
- Preference for host OS Brian Hook
- TEC Distribuate engine &cost of band width Stéphane Garin
- TEC Distribuate engine &cost of band width plalande@born2play.org
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Daniel Bendiksen
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Derek Licciardi
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Adam Martin
- Casual vs. Hardcore gameplay Ian Collyer
- Casual vs. Hardcore gameplay Jon Lambert
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Travis Nixon
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard En tertainment announces World of Warcraft Koster, Raph
- TECH: SEDA: An Architecture for Highly Concurrent Server Applications Bruce Mitchener
- Re:Play participants emails needed Marian Griffith
- [REALITY] [SOCIAL] ExistenZ Adam Martin
- [TECH] Mozilla as cross OS client for MUD/MMG ? Mathieu Castelli
- [TECH] Mozilla as cross OS client for MUD/MMG ? Chris Jones
- [TECH] Mozilla as cross OS client for MUD/MMG ? Par Winzell
- FW: [BIZ] Billing systems Dave Kennerly
- FW: Skotos TTT#44: The Global Community Christopher Allen
- [Fwd: Announce: New Mailing Lists Available] Bruce Mitchener
- BeQuest Michael Tresca
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
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- Geometric content generation Koster, Raph
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
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- Geometric content generation John Hopson
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Vincent Archer
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
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- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation rayzam
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- Geometric content generation J Aitken
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- Geometric content generation Sasha Hart
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- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
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- Geometric content generation rayzam
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- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
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- Geometric content generation Lee Sheldon
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Lee Sheldon
-----Original Message-----
From:Ola Fosheim Grostad
First, my apologies for not replying to this sooner.
>> One of Chris' more lucid and comprehensible essays, and I'm going
>> to
> The meaning of words get redefined every day. An essay that manage
> to mock science, philosophy and theology just to state that
> grandfathers are able to adapt stories... Lucid???
Heh, well the qualifier "more" is important. But I still found the
train of reasoning easy to follow.
<SNIP>
>> The fact is that story and interactivity/game play have
>> co-existed in the same experience quite happily for centuries.
>> Yet now people have decided there must be some new magical
>> paradigm. It's a new medium. All the rules have changed. No.
>> Sorry.
> Do you have any evidence of this?
I've just returned from a small conference where we discussed
storytelling in games, both solo and multiplayer, and one of many
good discussions touched on the storytelling that surrounds sports.
The fans interact with the players by shouting at them, and getting
waves or various other hand gestures in return. And everyone, even
the players, create a drama-like storyline as the game progresses in
the best tradition of emergent storytelling.
Beyond that we have participatory theatre from Shakespeare through
"The Rocky Horror Picture Show."
Every time a standup comedian pauses for a laugh she is interacting
with her audience, as well as ad-libbing in response to audience
input, invited or not. That interaction is a game played by
performer and audience with rules that can even be written down ala
Don Rickles and his Las Vegas shows.
The point is that despite the fact that story and game are obviously
different animals, and despite the fact that they may touch wholly
different parts of our physical brains, nobody (except some game
developers) seems particularly eager to reject one in favor of the
other. We accept both. The problem arises when one is far superior
to other in an entertainment that attempts to present both.
> Clearly a good storyteller (or speaker) will adapt his story to
> the audience, but that is > a far cry from interactivity.
Many storytellers or speakers tell riveting stories to rapt
audiences without adapting anything. It's the exact opposite of the
comedians described above.
> Likewise, kids don't need a compelling story to experience one,
> they can create one themselves with just a few hints. They do it
> everyday in their play. And kids love lousy stories told by their
> heroes (grandfathers included).
To defend grandfathers everywhere... they are practicing an art
forged in the campfires of primitive man. It is absolutely
interactivity to adjust to audience prompts. This is at the heart
of computer-based entertainment that relies on a fixed story to
allow players to feel they're affecting the story. That isn't to
say it doesn't have some significant drawbacks, particularly in
multiplayer, but games continue to do it.
Kids love lousy stories told by their heroes? I'm not sure I buy
that. They may love their heroes, and forgive their heroes their
stories, and enjoy the bonding experience -despite- the quality.
>> Adults are different, less flexible imagination, but a
>> charismatic actor can turn a disconnected series of events into a
>> compelling art experience.
Yup.
>> So, what is the story and what is the surrounding context...? And
>> where is the interactivity?
I've addressed this up above I think.
>> them, no wonder they are so readily swept under the rug. It
>> reminds me of my days at the California Institute of the Arts
>> where some of the more misguided painters decided that you could
>> tackle abstraction or surrealism without first learning to paint
>> a pear that looks like a pear. No. Picasso could tell you that
>> is wrong. Salvador Dali would sadly pluck at his moustaches.
>> But the question
> There are good graphic designers and visual artists that do not
> know how to draw a pear.
Meaning primitives? Naifs? I've certainly never worked with a
graphic designer who couldn't. It would certain limit one's range.
(I'm not talking about photographers where physical dexterity isn't
an issue.) I can't see asking Grandma Moses to crank out some
designs Richard Hescox didn't have time for. Although Richard would
be able to flatten perspective and mangle proportions, if a project
required it.
Can you give me some examples of artists I may have heard of? For
example, I have no idea if Jackson Pollack studied art or just
stepped in a bucket of paint one day by accident, and hit a canvas
while he was shaking his boot off. But then he didn't work as a
graphic designer, did he? His work was just incorporated into
graphic design. Anybody know?
> They probably miss the satisfaction of mastering the skill, but it
> doesn't prevent them from making art.
No, but it may be an additional obstacle to getting a job as a
graphic designer. Again, can you give me examples?
> Great art is in the eye and mind, not in the hand.
Yes, and I have on my wall a Peruvian rug that proves the point.
Lee - Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
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- [DSN]Geometric content generation[LONG] Derek Licciardi
- [DSN]Geometric content generation[LONG] Matt Mihaly
- LTM article Trump
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- LTM article Sellers, Mike
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- MMORPG Construction Kit Redux Lee Sheldon
- Request for ideas Eli Stevens
- Request for ideas J C Lawrence
- Request for ideas Jon Leonard
- Request for ideas Eli Stevens
- Request for ideas Timothy Dang
- Request for ideas Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Request for ideas Dickinson, Dallas
- Request for ideas Matt Mihaly
- Request for ideas Bruce Mitchener
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- Request for ideas holding99@mindspring.com
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- Spoofs Eli Stevens
- research in online games Manuel Oliveira
- research in online games Travis Nixon
- How Many Developers Does It take to Screw in a Lightbulb? [Poll] Lee Sheldon
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Bruce Mitchener
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Koster, Raph
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Vincent Archer
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Bruce Mitchener
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Robin Lee Powell
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) John Buehler
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Koster, Raph
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) John Buehler
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Bruce Mitchener
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
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- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric contentgeneration) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Travis Nixon
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Fwd: [CLIENT-DEV] Software Packages for MOO Bruce Mitchener
- Portable Class C Christopher Allen
- Portable Class C Vincent Archer
- [Meta] Portable Class C Dominic J. Eidson
- RP in EQ? Matt Mihaly
- AO Mess Vincent Archer
- Lum the Mad is closing Valerio Santinelli
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marian Griffith
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Matt Mihaly
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marian Griffith
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Matt Mihaly
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marian Griffith
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marc Bowden
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Jon Lambert
- Historic lessons on fluid identity John Buehler
- Historic lessons on fluid identity David Lindsey
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Matt Mihaly
- Lum the Mad is closing--sort of Koster, Raph