September 2001
- Strix: Object Persistence on Relational Backends Ling Lo
- Structured Social Play John Buehler
- Structured Social Play Tom Hubina
- Structured Social Play Christopher Allen
- Structured Social Play Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Structured Social Play Daniel Bendiksen
- Structured Social Play Tamzen Cannoy
- Structured Social Play Robin Lee Powell
- Structured Social Play Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Structured Social Play Travis Casey
- Structured Social Play Robin Lee Powell
- Structured Social Play Christopher Allen
- Structured Social Play Koster, Raph
- Structured Social Play Matthew D. Fuller
- Structured Social Play Bruce Mitchener
- Structured Social Play Takis Kalogiratos
- Structured Social Play shren
- Structured Social Play Daniel Bendiksen
- Structured Social Play shren
- Structured Social Play Matt Owen
- Structured Social Play Bruce Mitchener
- Structured Social Play Vincent Archer
- Structured Social Play shren
- Structured Social Play Daniel Bendiksen
- Structured Social Play Vincent Archer
- Structured Social Play John Buehler
- Structured Social Play Matt Mihaly
- Structured Social Play Marian Griffith
- Structured Social Play Travis Nixon
- NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Kylotan
- [BIZ] Billing systems Brian Hook
- [BIZ] Billing systems Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Billing systems Christopher Allen
- [BIZ] Billing systems Brian Hook
- [BIZ] Billing systems Christopher Allen
- [BIZ] Billing systems Kevin Littlejohn
- [BIZ] Billing systems Travis Nixon
- [BIZ] Billing systems Brian Hook
- [BIZ] Billing systems Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [BIZ] Billing systems Owen
- [BIZ] Billing systems Jussi 'Sulka' Haro
- [BIZ] Billing systems Peter Tyson
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Benchmarking MUDs Bruce Mitchener
- Benchmarking MUDs Lars Duening
- Benchmarking MUDs Adam Martin
- Benchmarking MUDs Robin Lee Powell
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Adam Martin
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Ian Collyer
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Adam Martin
- Benchmarking MUDs Jon Lambert
- Free Time != Advancement (was: Structured Social Play) Eli Stevens
- Random American Name Generator (!) Ling Lo
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Brian Hook
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Christopher Allen
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Derek Licciardi
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Sean K
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Ent ertainment announces World of Warcraft Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Updated my site Koster, Raph
- Vircom T4C Brian Hook
- Vircom T4C Valerio Santinelli
- Preference for host OS Brian Hook
- Preference for host OS Jon Leonard
- Preference for host OS Bruce Mitchener
- Preference for host OS brandon@roguetrader.com
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS Jeremy Noetzelman
- Preference for host OS Fred Clift
- Preference for host OS Travis Casey
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS Travis Casey
- Preference for host OS Sean K
- Preference for host OS Vincent Archer
- Preference for host OS Phillip Lenhardt
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS Brian Hook
- Preference for host OS Brian Tackett
- Preference for host OS Jon Lambert
- Preference for host OS David Loeser
- Preference for host OS Brian Hook
- TEC Distribuate engine &cost of band width Stéphane Garin
- TEC Distribuate engine &cost of band width plalande@born2play.org
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Daniel Bendiksen
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Derek Licciardi
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Adam Martin
- Casual vs. Hardcore gameplay Ian Collyer
- Casual vs. Hardcore gameplay Jon Lambert
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Travis Nixon
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard En tertainment announces World of Warcraft Koster, Raph
- TECH: SEDA: An Architecture for Highly Concurrent Server Applications Bruce Mitchener
- Re:Play participants emails needed Marian Griffith
- [REALITY] [SOCIAL] ExistenZ Adam Martin
- [TECH] Mozilla as cross OS client for MUD/MMG ? Mathieu Castelli
- [TECH] Mozilla as cross OS client for MUD/MMG ? Chris Jones
- [TECH] Mozilla as cross OS client for MUD/MMG ? Par Winzell
- FW: [BIZ] Billing systems Dave Kennerly
- FW: Skotos TTT#44: The Global Community Christopher Allen
- [Fwd: Announce: New Mailing Lists Available] Bruce Mitchener
- BeQuest Michael Tresca
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Derek Licciardi
- Geometric content generation Koster, Raph
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Kwon Ekstrom
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Koster, Raph
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Koster, Raph
- Geometric content generation John Hopson
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Vincent Archer
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
-----Original Message-----
From: Ola Fosheim Grøstad <olag@ifi.uio.no>
> Dave Rickey wrote:
>> The purpose of a schedule of reinforcement is to encourage
>> certain forms of play over others. When the players find the
>> ways to skip
> Exactly, MUDs as school. Behave or you'll get lousy grades.
Play nice and you get a star, be bad and you have to stand in the
hallway.
>> If it was acceptable to have only a single mode of play, we could
>> ignore it, but in these games we are usually trying to integrate
>> multiple play modes into the same reward structure (at a minimum,
>> a "melee" style, a "nuker" style, and a "healer" style). We do
>> this in an effort to create complementary strengths and
>> weaknesses, push the players towards group pursuit of individual
>> goals, and drive our social construction and organization.
> I don't mind creating interdependencies, that is what resources
> are for. This setting may be a lot more complex than you can
> easily account for predictively by psychological theory, though.
Only as a piece of a larger theory. What I'm leaning towards lately
is a mixture of behaviouristic motivations, game theory, and
emergence in complexity theory. Been out of touch with this list
for the last few months while DAoC was in crunch mode, now that
we're approaching launch I've got a lot of ideas to kick around.
> But, as you yourself point out, what makes these games fun is
> hanging out with other people (or making fun of them). The mazes
> are by definition tedious. They do not make the game fun (unless
> they involve real danger which provide drama). In fact, finding a
> cheat can be VERY fun. :) I still think that the long mazes
> primarily are in place in order to sustain the belief that there
> is "something more", something mythical, something to be proud of
> etc. So, they are there to prevent, not only to enable. That's
> where the tediousness come in. What I want is a design that
> involves almost no "prevent" and lots of "enable". I am not
> saying that this can be achieved within the current RPG paradigm
> though.
Okay, I'm going to have to revisit this at length in the near
future, but what you describing is what my private shorthand refers
to as the boundaries between "Impositional" game elements and
"Interactive" elements. Impositional elements are dictated by the
game developer, and are part of the "laws of physics" for the game
world. Interactive elements are those that are manipulable by the
players. The key to the boundary is that impositional elements
define interactive ones, but if they over-define it the regime of
interactive elements is very limited, and if they underdefine it the
regime of *desirable* (to the player) interactive elements is even
more limited.
>> in AO, and UO. IMHO, EQ's status as the #1 game in the US comes
>> not from the fact it is prettier than the alternatives, but
>> because it has these fundamental socializing pressures, and the
>> others do not.
> Maybe you are right, and many would claim that you are, several
> players also dislike the stickiness. I don't play EQ though, so I
> can't tell you for sure. EQ did have a head start as a big 3D MUD
> though. I.e. no competition and a solid publisher.
The head start could account for the lead, but not the fact that all
the competitors except UO have languished. If the games were
generally comparable (and as games, they generally are), the growth
in the market should have been spread across all three, not limited
to only one.
> The vision was to go with the well known as far as I can tell.
> The controversies about EQ's addictiveness might also generate
> buzz, which in turn generate interest.
Innovative, shminnovative. It was a Diku in 3D, so was M59, AC, and
UO. So is Camelot.
Almost every single EQ player has gone through a period of
"burnout", where they wondered why they spent so much time playing.
Usually 2-3 months after they started. Those that had made friends
in the game usually stuck it out, those that didn't usually quit.
I'm not sure that a tradmill that lasts for more than 6 months is
really serving any purpose.
> I think the fact that AC, UO, AO were all built on more
> innovative visions (I am not claiming that they did
> materialize) might be an issue as well. That can be more risky
> and lead to dysfunctional design decisions (i.e. driven by some
> epic vision rather than function).
Vision can only account for so much, most development decisions
respond to the same pressures in the same ways.
>> servers crash frequently, AC almost never crashes). What I do
>> see is a direct correlation between socializing pressures and
>> revenue.
> Probably, although AO is too young and lineage is a different
> culture. AC's interface looked dated to me before launch. I think
> there are lots of contributing reasons. Number of buyers,
> retention and what not are somewhat different issues too. And of
> course, high revenue early could mean a higher ability to improve
> and project a promising future (expansions and such).
There's definitely a "critical mass" of subscribers, around
50,000-100,000. Less than that, and the game goes on a death
spiral. It doesn't get ongoing development because it's not making
enough money, so it stagnates and loses more players, so it gets
less development....
> Still, my perspective is different from yours. I only care about
> the users, and not at all about the company that design the game
> and their revenue. I don't even view it as desirable to retain
> players for years. Having users that feel that the world was
> worth the trouble and enabling is what I care about.
>> Players will complain about graphics, whine about balance,
>> *scream* about stability. But when it comes time to renew their
>> subscription, what decides if you keep that customer is how many
>> friends he feels he'd be leaving behind.
> This is what several designers say. I don't think that is enough
> though. IMO the player also wants to believe that there is a
> (new) future (for him) in the system.
Beyond a certain point, yes. There's only so long you can hold the
carrot out in front of them before they figure out they are never
going to reach it, or be satisfied with it if they do.
>> Show me a better way to create those friendships than through
>> manipulation of the XP treadmill system, and I'll be all over it
>> (I always hated them, anyway). For right now, I'll go with what
>> works.
> There are other concepts that involve cooperation, but right now
> the current market expects the RPG model I guess? So, to get
> there you need to grow a new market. (Or you could provide them as
> alternative paths with some exclusive advantages.) Of course, as I
> believe you also pointed out, the treadmill system is not too
> complicated to balance as your contribution to progress is almost
> an illusion.
No almost about it. We're going to have to grow beyond it. It
works, but so inefficiently that it practically begs for
replacement.
--Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation J Aitken
- Geometric content generation Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Geometric content generation Sasha Hart
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation J Aitken
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Travis Nixon
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Eli Stevens
- Geometric Content Generation John Robert Arras
- Geometric Content Generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Michael Tresca
- Geometric content generation Derek Licciardi
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Derek Licciardi
- Geometric content generation Robin Lee Powell
- Geometric content generation Kwon Ekstrom
- Geometric content generation Nathan F. Yospe
- Geometric content generation Travis Nixon
- Geometric content generation Nathan F. Yospe
- Geometric content generation Kwon Ekstrom
- Geometric content generation Travis Nixon
- Geometric content generation Nip
- Geometric content generation Jay Carlson
- Geometric content generation Kwon Ekstrom
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation J Todd Coleman
- Geometric content generation Peter Tyson
- Geometric content generation S. Patrick Gallaty
- Geometric content generation Eric Rhea
- Geometric content generation Paul Schwanz
- Geometric content generation Lee Sheldon
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Lee Sheldon
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Jon Lambert
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Eric Rhea
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Eric Rhea
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Koster, Raph
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Ian Collyer
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation Eli Stevens
- Geometric content generation Ian Collyer
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Geometric content generation Derek Licciardi
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation Koster, Raph
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation Kwon Ekstrom
- [DSN]Geometric content generation[LONG] Derek Licciardi
- [DSN]Geometric content generation[LONG] Matt Mihaly
- LTM article Trump
- LTM article Travis Nixon
- LTM article J Todd Coleman
- LTM article Travis Nixon
- LTM article Matt Mihaly
- LTM article Sellers, Mike
- LTM article J Todd Coleman
- LTM article Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- LTM article Adam Martin
- LTM article Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- MMORPG Construction Kit Redux Lee Sheldon
- Request for ideas Eli Stevens
- Request for ideas J C Lawrence
- Request for ideas Jon Leonard
- Request for ideas Eli Stevens
- Request for ideas Timothy Dang
- Request for ideas Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Request for ideas Dickinson, Dallas
- Request for ideas Matt Mihaly
- Request for ideas Bruce Mitchener
- Request for ideas Adam Martin
- Request for ideas Jon Leonard
- Request for ideas Jon Leonard
- Request for ideas Vincent Archer
- Request for ideas Matt Mihaly
- Request for ideas holding99@mindspring.com
- Request for ideas Freeman, Jeff
- Request for ideas Robin Lee Powell
- Request for ideas Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
- Request for ideas Koster, Raph
- Request for ideas John Buehler
- Request for ideas Christopher Allen
- Request for ideas Chuk Radder
- Request for ideas Nicolai Hansen
- Request for ideas Ben Chambers
- Request for ideas Marian Griffith
- Request for ideas Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Request for ideas Ian Collyer
- Request for ideas Freeman, Jeff
- Request for ideas holding99@mindspring.com
- Request for ideas Patrick Dughi
- Request for ideas Christopher Allen
- Request for ideas Adam Martin
- Request for ideas Matt Mihaly
- Request for ideas Leland Hulbert II
- Request for ideas Travis Nixon
- Request for ideas Marian Griffith
- Request for ideas Ben Chambers
- Request for ideas Derek Licciardi
- Request for ideas John Buehler
- Spoofs Eli Stevens
- research in online games Manuel Oliveira
- research in online games Travis Nixon
- How Many Developers Does It take to Screw in a Lightbulb? [Poll] Lee Sheldon
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Bruce Mitchener
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Koster, Raph
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Vincent Archer
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Bruce Mitchener
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Robin Lee Powell
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) John Buehler
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Koster, Raph
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) John Buehler
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Bruce Mitchener
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric contentgeneration) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Travis Nixon
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Fwd: [CLIENT-DEV] Software Packages for MOO Bruce Mitchener
- Portable Class C Christopher Allen
- Portable Class C Vincent Archer
- [Meta] Portable Class C Dominic J. Eidson
- RP in EQ? Matt Mihaly
- AO Mess Vincent Archer
- Lum the Mad is closing Valerio Santinelli
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marian Griffith
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Matt Mihaly
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marian Griffith
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Matt Mihaly
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marian Griffith
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marc Bowden
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Jon Lambert
- Historic lessons on fluid identity John Buehler
- Historic lessons on fluid identity David Lindsey
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Matt Mihaly
- Lum the Mad is closing--sort of Koster, Raph