September 2001
- Strix: Object Persistence on Relational Backends Ling Lo
- Structured Social Play John Buehler
- Structured Social Play Tom Hubina
- Structured Social Play Christopher Allen
- Structured Social Play Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Structured Social Play Daniel Bendiksen
- Structured Social Play Tamzen Cannoy
- Structured Social Play Robin Lee Powell
- Structured Social Play Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Structured Social Play Travis Casey
- Structured Social Play Robin Lee Powell
- Structured Social Play Christopher Allen
- Structured Social Play Koster, Raph
- Structured Social Play Matthew D. Fuller
- Structured Social Play Bruce Mitchener
- Structured Social Play Takis Kalogiratos
- Structured Social Play shren
- Structured Social Play Daniel Bendiksen
- Structured Social Play shren
- Structured Social Play Matt Owen
- Structured Social Play Bruce Mitchener
- Structured Social Play Vincent Archer
- Structured Social Play shren
- Structured Social Play Daniel Bendiksen
- Structured Social Play Vincent Archer
- Structured Social Play John Buehler
- Structured Social Play Matt Mihaly
- Structured Social Play Marian Griffith
- Structured Social Play Travis Nixon
- NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Kylotan
- [BIZ] Billing systems Brian Hook
- [BIZ] Billing systems Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Billing systems Christopher Allen
- [BIZ] Billing systems Brian Hook
- [BIZ] Billing systems Christopher Allen
- [BIZ] Billing systems Kevin Littlejohn
- [BIZ] Billing systems Travis Nixon
- [BIZ] Billing systems Brian Hook
- [BIZ] Billing systems Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [BIZ] Billing systems Owen
- [BIZ] Billing systems Jussi 'Sulka' Haro
- [BIZ] Billing systems Peter Tyson
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Benchmarking MUDs Bruce Mitchener
- Benchmarking MUDs Lars Duening
- Benchmarking MUDs Adam Martin
- Benchmarking MUDs Robin Lee Powell
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Adam Martin
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Ian Collyer
- Benchmarking MUDs Chris Gray
- Benchmarking MUDs Adam Martin
- Benchmarking MUDs Jon Lambert
- Free Time != Advancement (was: Structured Social Play) Eli Stevens
- Random American Name Generator (!) Ling Lo
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Brian Hook
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Christopher Allen
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Derek Licciardi
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Sean K
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Ent ertainment announces World of Warcraft Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Updated my site Koster, Raph
- Vircom T4C Brian Hook
- Vircom T4C Valerio Santinelli
- Preference for host OS Brian Hook
- Preference for host OS Jon Leonard
- Preference for host OS Bruce Mitchener
- Preference for host OS brandon@roguetrader.com
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS Jeremy Noetzelman
- Preference for host OS Fred Clift
- Preference for host OS Travis Casey
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS Travis Casey
- Preference for host OS Sean K
- Preference for host OS Vincent Archer
- Preference for host OS Phillip Lenhardt
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS J C Lawrence
- Preference for host OS Brian Hook
- Preference for host OS Brian Tackett
- Preference for host OS Jon Lambert
- Preference for host OS David Loeser
- Preference for host OS Brian Hook
- TEC Distribuate engine &cost of band width Stéphane Garin
- TEC Distribuate engine &cost of band width plalande@born2play.org
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Daniel Bendiksen
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Derek Licciardi
- [MUD DEV] Text editors in MUDs [was Structured Social Play] Adam Martin
- Casual vs. Hardcore gameplay Ian Collyer
- Casual vs. Hardcore gameplay Jon Lambert
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard Entertainment announces World of Warcraft Travis Nixon
- Higher barrier to entry? was NEWS: Blizzard En tertainment announces World of Warcraft Koster, Raph
- TECH: SEDA: An Architecture for Highly Concurrent Server Applications Bruce Mitchener
- Re:Play participants emails needed Marian Griffith
- [REALITY] [SOCIAL] ExistenZ Adam Martin
- [TECH] Mozilla as cross OS client for MUD/MMG ? Mathieu Castelli
- [TECH] Mozilla as cross OS client for MUD/MMG ? Chris Jones
- [TECH] Mozilla as cross OS client for MUD/MMG ? Par Winzell
- FW: [BIZ] Billing systems Dave Kennerly
- FW: Skotos TTT#44: The Global Community Christopher Allen
- [Fwd: Announce: New Mailing Lists Available] Bruce Mitchener
- BeQuest Michael Tresca
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Derek Licciardi
- Geometric content generation Koster, Raph
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Kwon Ekstrom
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Koster, Raph
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Koster, Raph
- Geometric content generation John Hopson
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Vincent Archer
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation J Aitken
- Geometric content generation Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Geometric content generation Sasha Hart
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation J Aitken
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Dave Rickey
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Travis Nixon
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Eli Stevens
- Geometric Content Generation John Robert Arras
- Geometric Content Generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation rayzam
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Michael Tresca
- Geometric content generation Derek Licciardi
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Adam Martin
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Derek Licciardi
- Geometric content generation Robin Lee Powell
- Geometric content generation Kwon Ekstrom
- Geometric content generation Nathan F. Yospe
- Geometric content generation Travis Nixon
- Geometric content generation Nathan F. Yospe
- Geometric content generation Kwon Ekstrom
- Geometric content generation Travis Nixon
- Geometric content generation Nip
- Geometric content generation Jay Carlson
- Geometric content generation Kwon Ekstrom
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation J Todd Coleman
- Geometric content generation Peter Tyson
- Geometric content generation S. Patrick Gallaty
- Geometric content generation Eric Rhea
- Geometric content generation Paul Schwanz
- Geometric content generation Lee Sheldon
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Lee Sheldon
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Jon Lambert
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Eric Rhea
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Eric Rhea
- Geometric content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Geometric content generation Koster, Raph
- Geometric content generation Brian Hook
- Geometric content generation Ian Collyer
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation Eli Stevens
- Geometric content generation Ian Collyer
- Geometric content generation John Buehler
- Geometric content generation gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Geometric content generation Derek Licciardi
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation Koster, Raph
- Geometric content generation Matt Mihaly
- Geometric content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Geometric content generation Kwon Ekstrom
- [DSN]Geometric content generation[LONG] Derek Licciardi
- [DSN]Geometric content generation[LONG] Matt Mihaly
- LTM article Trump
- LTM article Travis Nixon
- LTM article J Todd Coleman
- LTM article Travis Nixon
- LTM article Matt Mihaly
- LTM article Sellers, Mike
- LTM article J Todd Coleman
- LTM article Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- LTM article Adam Martin
- LTM article Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- MMORPG Construction Kit Redux Lee Sheldon
- Request for ideas Eli Stevens
- Request for ideas J C Lawrence
- Request for ideas Jon Leonard
- Request for ideas Eli Stevens
- Request for ideas Timothy Dang
- Request for ideas Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Request for ideas Dickinson, Dallas
- Request for ideas Matt Mihaly
- Request for ideas Bruce Mitchener
- Request for ideas Adam Martin
- Request for ideas Jon Leonard
- Request for ideas Jon Leonard
- Request for ideas Vincent Archer
- Request for ideas Matt Mihaly
- Request for ideas holding99@mindspring.com
- Request for ideas Freeman, Jeff
- Request for ideas Robin Lee Powell
- Request for ideas Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
- Request for ideas Koster, Raph
- Request for ideas John Buehler
- Request for ideas Christopher Allen
- Request for ideas Chuk Radder
- Request for ideas Nicolai Hansen
- Request for ideas Ben Chambers
- Request for ideas Marian Griffith
- Request for ideas Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Request for ideas Ian Collyer
- Request for ideas Freeman, Jeff
- Request for ideas holding99@mindspring.com
- Request for ideas Patrick Dughi
- Request for ideas Christopher Allen
- Request for ideas Adam Martin
- Request for ideas Matt Mihaly
- Request for ideas Leland Hulbert II
- Request for ideas Travis Nixon
- Request for ideas Marian Griffith
- Request for ideas Ben Chambers
- Request for ideas Derek Licciardi
- Request for ideas John Buehler
- Spoofs Eli Stevens
- research in online games Manuel Oliveira
- research in online games Travis Nixon
- How Many Developers Does It take to Screw in a Lightbulb? [Poll] Lee Sheldon
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Bruce Mitchener
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Koster, Raph
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Vincent Archer
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Bruce Mitchener
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Robin Lee Powell
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) John Buehler
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Koster, Raph
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) John Buehler
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Bruce Mitchener
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric contentgeneration) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Travis Nixon
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Fwd: [CLIENT-DEV] Software Packages for MOO Bruce Mitchener
- Portable Class C Christopher Allen
- Portable Class C Vincent Archer
- [Meta] Portable Class C Dominic J. Eidson
- RP in EQ? Matt Mihaly
- AO Mess Vincent Archer
- Lum the Mad is closing Valerio Santinelli
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marian Griffith
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Matt Mihaly
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marian Griffith
In <URL:/archives/meow?group+local.muddev> on Mon 01 Oct, Matt Mihaly wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Marian Griffith wrote:
>> The fact is that a fixed and traceable identity is a very recent
>> invention.
> No it's not. A fixed and traceable identity has always
> existed. People can recognize each other. That is a fixed and
> traceable identity.
So you can split hairs. Besides, people are not at all good at
recognising each other, and you can with a little skill create
disguises that hardly anybody can see through.
Apart from all that, I was of course talking about identities in
muds in relation to the problem that it is very simple for players
to change identity simply by creating a new persona (if necessary
using a different email or computer).
The general claim, and you can take a look at the list of laws at
Raph's page, is that you can not prevent this, and that thus it is
impossible to prevent virtual sociopathic behaviour.
The fact that somebody knows you has no bearing on your identity.
Until very recently a dead body was just that, unless it was so
shortly dead that its features were still recognisable. Only with
the extensive birth certificates, record keeping -and- very fast
communication between localised communities (telephone), has this
changed. Nowadays a body can often be identified even if only some
fragment of the jaws is available. That is quite different from a
situation where your identity is determined by other people know-
ing you (which is the case with a significant part of the earth's
population)
Historically speaking people's identity was traceable only through
their social relations and acquintances. Because the same thing is
essentially true on muds, we -can- learn from the ways that socie-
ties historically dealt with the problems inherent in such and un-
certain identification.
>> More so, they live in a situation that is not dissimilar to muds
>> where one can simply move to another town and effectively become
>> anonymous and untraceable. Less than two centuries ago the entire
>> population lived under such circumstances.
> Of course, there are large practical and psychological barriers to
> totally cutting yourself off from your previous life. They far far
> exceed any such barriers in the current virtual worlds.
Yes but that does not make it any less valid. And through the ages
countless people have done just that.
Functional anonymity is a social problem that has existed as long as
humankind, and the fact that in muds it is greater only makes it
more relevant to study the ways traditionally it has been dealt
with.
>> Lock your door.
>> Societies built walls, both physical and social, around themsel-
>> ves, to keep strangers (and potential dangers) out. To enter a
>> city you had to check in with the gate guard (or sheriff ;), and
>> leave your weapons behind. Unless of course somebody in the city
>> would vouch for you, or you were a citizen. This 'primitive'
>> technique is emminently applicable to muds, and can even allow
>> player societies to ensure their own protection.
> If you want to ensure near-absolute safety of your players, just
> don't allow them to ever damage each other in any way. Get rid of
> things like monsters attacking random people, etc.
Safety of the players is not the issue. Not really anyway, though
it is questionable that making it impossible to harm each other is
possible at all in a sufficiently rich mud. I was simply respond-
ing to an often heard statement on this list about grief players and
how the lack of fixed identity made it impossible to stop them from
being virtual sociopaths. I tried to point out that first the
situation with anonymity is not unique to muds, but is as old as
humankind and second that there are ways societies have learned to
deal with it which may be applicable to muds. How safe, or unsafe,
you wish to make your mud is a separate issue What you can do is use
a feature of the typical mud to create dis- tinct societies that
grief players can not (easily) work around, simply because they must
first be accepted into a society before they can be a virtual
sociopath and subsequently the other players have -real- control
over their social environment that is meaning- full in relation to
the crime (unlike PK which is largely ineffec- tive and easily
circumvented by creating a new persona).
> The difference is that in the physical world, the idea IS to
> totally protect people if possible. That isn't really the idea in
> a MUD where part of the fun might be attacking other players and
> the danger inherent in the possibility of such action. The goals
> aren't the same at all.
This certainly is a form of entertainment to some players, and not
to others. Until now it has been impossible to cater to both these
crowds at the same time. Mainly through lack of social 'tools' to
enforce a group culture (or society). I tried to show that contra-
ry to popular belief it might be possible to develop such tools, and
thus create games that are as (un)safe as its players want.
[example snipped]
> Achaea does this, but of course all it does is provide a safe
> haven
Is there something inherently wrong with that, that you call it "all
it does"?
> (well, what we really do is make it so that if you set foot in an
> enemy city, you're quite likely to die from NPC attacks, and if
> you have to deal with player attacks on top of it, you're screwed,
> unless you gather together a number of people to attack at once,
> thus spreading out the NPC attacks).
But that is something quite different from my example. In Achaea it
apparently is possible for players to circumvent the gatekeeper and
force entrance. In that case it is not a social tool but a ga- me
feature. I have no doubt this is perfect for your game, but I was
thinking about a game that is much more society oriented (for lack
of a better word, and not wishing to imply that Achaea has no social
aspects!) I was thinking more along the lines of UO and the problems
it has (had) with player created cities, and invasion, crime and
other socially unwanted (by those players) activities.
> The problem with it is that all it does is protect someone while
> he or she is in the city, and he or she has to leave the city in
> order to do a lot of things.
You could argue that this also says something about the city, that
it is so small and limited that you have to leave it to do any-
thing interesting, but that would be unfair and not applicable to
Achaea (or similar combat oriented muds). The point was that I was
(am) thinking much more along the lines of a virtual world, rather
than a game. More a mush than a mud, if JCL can forgive me the
crude analogy.
> Now, we could protect them everywhere, but total protection isn't
> the goal, and in Achaea at least, is definitely not desirable.
I would argue that on none of the games (safe possibly UO) this is
not desirable on any game currently available that is marketed as a
mud (I do hate the impossible and wildly inaccurte acronyms that
have become popular to describe these games). Furcadia is also sa-
fe of course, but that is a quite different game, not a simulation
of a world (however crude) that the typical muds aims to be. But
you would be hard pressed to make 'Sims online' popular if you al-
low players to buy a gun and randomly shoot other player's sims. It
is all a matter of how much social focus a game has, and how much
social tools the players need.
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey - Historic lessons on fluid identity Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Matt Mihaly
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marian Griffith
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marc Bowden
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Marian Griffith
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Jon Lambert
- Historic lessons on fluid identity John Buehler
- Historic lessons on fluid identity David Lindsey
- Historic lessons on fluid identity Matt Mihaly
- Lum the Mad is closing--sort of Koster, Raph