July 2001
- [TECH] Open Source oodb/object persistence toolkit library alpha release Brian Price
- In-game email (was On socialization and convenience) Gavin Doughtie
- In-game email (was On socialization and conveni ence) Freeman, Jeff
- In-game email (was On socialization and convenience) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH DGN: Single user MOB arena Trevyn
- TECH: CRPGs vs. RPGs, Way Back When... Michael Tresca
- TECH: CRPGs vs. RPGs, Way Back When... Matt Owen
- TECH: CRPGs vs. RPGs, Way Back When... J C Lawrence
- TECH: CRPGs vs. RPGs, Way Back When... Michael Tresca
- (no subject) Alan Unsworth
- (no subject) Edward Falconer
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- (no subject) Bruce Mitchener
- (no subject) Travis Casey
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- (no subject) Travis Casey
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Brian Hook
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Freeman, Jeff
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Trump
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Jeremy Noetzelman
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers J C Lawrence
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Matt Mihaly
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Matt Owen
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Jeremy Noetzelman
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Bryce Harrington
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers J C Lawrence
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Brian Hook
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers J C Lawrence
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Brian Hook
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers J C Lawrence
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Vincent Archer
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Madman Across the Water
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Brian Hook
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers J Todd Coleman
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Brian Hook
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Sean Kelly
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Jon Lambert
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Sean Kelly
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Bruce Mitchener
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Sean Kelly
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Dave Rickey
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Travis Casey
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Bryce Harrington
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Alistair Milne
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Travis Casey
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers J C Lawrence
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Travis Casey
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Jon Lambert
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Adam Martin
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Vincent Archer
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Travis Nixon
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Adam Martin
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Vincent Archer
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Adam Martin
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Vincent Archer
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Adam Martin
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Dave Rickey
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Travis Casey
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Dave Rickey
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Timothy Dang
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Alistair Milne
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers J C Lawrence
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Brian Hook
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Sean Kelly
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Gavin Doughtie
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers J C Lawrence
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Brian Hook
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Joel Chestnutt
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Aaron Mulder
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Max Gilead
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Jon Lambert
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Luke Carruthers
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Jeremy Noetzelman
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers J C Lawrence
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Jeremy Noetzelman
- Libs for 3D Client/Servers Adam Martin
- New polls claw@kanga.nu
- virtual mind project Phillip Lenhardt
- [TECH] Data-transfer protocols for MUDs Adam Martin
- Chatbot Michael Tresca
- GPL (was:Libs for 3D Client/Servers) Joackim Birgersson
- GPL (was:Libs for 3D Client/Servers) Travis Casey
- GPL (was:Libs for 3D Client/Servers) ghovs
- GPL (was:Libs for 3D Client/Servers) Vincent Archer
- GPL (was:Libs for 3D Client/Servers) Max Gilead
- GPL (was:Libs for 3D Client/Servers) Bobby Martin
- GPL (was:Libs for 3D Client/Servers) Joackim Birgersson
- GPL (was:Libs for 3D Client/Servers) Patrick Dughi
- GPL (was:Libs for 3D Client/Servers) Matt Mihaly
- GPL (was:Libs for 3D Client/Servers) Koster, Raph
- GPL (was:Libs for 3D Client/Servers) Joackim Birgersson
- Graphical Mud-in-a-box musings Brian Hook
- Graphical Mud-in-a-box musings Justin Rogers
- Graphical Mud-in-a-box musings Rob Bartel
- Graphical Mud-in-a-box musings Adam Martin
- Chatbot, NLP and explaining away NPC limitations Erin Mulder
- Server hosting Brian Hook
- Server hosting Corey Crawford
- Server hosting Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Server hosting Valerio Santinelli
- Server hosting Madman Across the Water
- Server hosting Frank Crowell
- Server hosting Alistair Milne
- Server hosting Brian Hook
- Server hosting Freeman, Jeff
- Server hosting Matt Mihaly
- Server hosting fred@clift.org
- Chatbot, NLP and explaining away NPC limitations Robert Zubek
- Edged weapon damage John W Pierce
- Player characters as a prey species Jon Leonard
- Player characters as a prey species Justin Rogers
- Player characters as a prey species Ling Lo
- Player characters as a prey species J C Lawrence
- Player characters as a prey species lhulbert@hotmail.com
- Player characters as a prey species Dan Shiovitz
- Player characters as a prey species Justin Rogers
- Player characters as a prey species Matt Mihaly
- Request to mailing list MUD-Dev rejected J C Lawrence
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Peter Tyson
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Derek Licciardi
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Matt Mihaly
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Peter Tyson
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Eric Lee {RAT}
- Chatting in MMPORPGs John Buehler
- Chatting in MMPORPGs lhulbert@hotmail.com
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Adam Martin
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Eli Stevens
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Dave Rickey
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Vincent Archer
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Adam Martin
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Kevin Littlejohn
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Lee Sheldon
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Madman Across the Water
- Chatting in MMPORPGs Peter Tyson
- Chatting in MMPORPGs J C Lawrence
- TECH: Mail (was On socialization and convenience) Chris Jones
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragmentation Derek Licciardi
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragmentation Sean Kelly
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragmentation Justin Rogers
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragmentation Chris Dern
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragmentation David Bennett
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragm entation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragmentation Kwon Ekstrom
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragmentation Bruce Mitchener
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragmentation Adam Martin
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragm entation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragmentation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragm entation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragmentation Derek Licciardi
- [TECH] String Classes, Memory Management, and Fragm entation Bruce Mitchener
- Mudpie Matt Mihaly
- strong encryption for authentication Fred Clift
- strong encryption for authentication David Bennett
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Edward Glowacki
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Derek Licciardi
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication shren
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Ben Tolputt
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Edward Glowacki
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Edward Glowacki
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Ben Tolputt
- strong encryption for authentication J C Lawrence
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Vincent Archer
- strong encryption for authentication Fred Clift
- strong encryption for authentication J C Lawrence
- strong encryption for authentication Sean Kelly
- strong encryption for authentication Tamzen Cannoy
- strong encryption for authentication Sean Kelly
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Tamzen Cannoy
- strong encryption for authentication Travis Casey
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Travis Casey
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Travis Casey
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Travis Casey
- strong encryption for authentication Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- strong encryption for authentication Edward Glowacki
- strong encryption for authentication Matt Mihaly
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Freeman, Jeff
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Bruce Mitchener
- strong encryption for authentication Brian Price
- strong encryption for authentication Kevin Littlejohn
- strong encryption for authentication Brian Price
- strong encryption for authentication Kevin Littlejohn
- strong encryption for authentication Fred Clift
- strong encryption for authentication J C Lawrence
- strong encryption for authentication Robert Fleck
- strong encryption for authentication Sean Kelly
- strong encryption for authentication Edward Glowacki
- strong encryption for authentication Fred Clift
- strong encryption for authentication Fred Clift
- strong encryption for authentication J C Lawrence
- strong encryption for authentication Fred Clift
- strong encryption for authentication Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- strong encryption for authentication Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- strong encryption for authentication J C Lawrence
- strong encryption for authentication Oliver Jowett
- strong encryption for authentication Kwon Ekstrom
- strong encryption for authentication F. Randall Farmer
- strong encryption for authentication Kwon Ekstrom
- strong encryption for authentication J C Lawrence
- strong encryption for authentication Kwon Ekstrom
- strong encryption for authentication J C Lawrence
- strong encryption for authentication Dave Rickey
- strong encryption for authentication Jon Lambert
- strong encryption for authentication Dave Rickey
- strong encryption for authentication J C Lawrence
- Toward a Craftier Dragon Paul Schwanz
- Toward a Craftier Dragon Maximus
- Toward a Craftier Dragon rayzam
- Toward a Craftier Dragon Matt Owen
- Toward a Craftier Dragon Michael Tresca
- Toward a Craftier Dragon Travis Nixon
- Toward a Craftier Dragon Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Toward a Craftier Dragon Andrew Reisse
- Toward a Craftier Dragon J C Lawrence
- Toward a Craftier Dragon rayzam
- Toward a Craftier Dragon J C Lawrence
- Toward a Craftier Dragon rayzam
- Toward a Craftier Dragon Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Toward a Craftier Dragon Michael Tresca
- Toward a Craftier Dragon John Hopson
- Toward a Craftier Dragon yospe@kanga.nu
- Grief players with ip/dns spoofers Tand'a-ur
- Grief players with ip/dns spoofers Sean Kelly
- Grief players with ip/dns spoofers J C Lawrence
- Grief players with ip/dns spoofers Greg Underwood
- Grief players with ip/dns spoofers Robert Fleck
- Grief players with ip/dns spoofers J C Lawrence
- Grief players with ip/dns spoofers Tand'a-ur
- Grief players with ip/dns spoofers Adam Martin
- Grief players with ip/dns spoofers J C Lawrence
- character transfer in EQ Matt Mihaly
- character transfer in EQ Derek Licciardi
- character transfer in EQ Dave Rickey
- character transfer in EQ Derek Licciardi
- character transfer in EQ S. Patrick Gallaty
- character transfer in EQ Michael Tresca
- DGN: Craftier dragon and players as GMs Mathieu Castelli
- DGN: Craftier dragon and players as GMs Matt Mihaly
- DGN: Craftier dragon and players as GMs Mathieu Castelli
- DGN: Craftier dragon and players as GMs Travis Nixon
- DGN: Craftier dragon and players as GMs Marian Griffith
- Biz/Media Peter Tyson
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? David Loeser
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Kwon Ekstrom
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Xuri
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Adam Martin
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Justin Rogers
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? David Loeser
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Matt Mihaly
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Matt Mihaly
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? luke@rocketship.com
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? J C Lawrence
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Freeman, Jeff
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Koster, Raph
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Freeman, Jeff
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Koster, Raph
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Joe Andrieu
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Koster, Raph
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? John Hopson
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? J C Lawrence
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Travis Casey
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Joe Andrieu
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Dave Rickey
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Marc Bowden
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Sean K
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Freeman, Jeff
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Matt Mihaly
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Koster, Raph
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Dave Rickey
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? J C Lawrence
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Michael Tresca
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Trump
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Kristen L. Koster
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Sean Kelly
- To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [NEWS] New MUD Magazine Derek Snider
- Real-world skills Was: strong encryption for authentication Travis Nixon
- Real-world skills Was: strong encryption for authentication Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Something in the water Koster, Raph
- Something in the water Dave Rickey
- Something in the water Koster, Raph
- Something in the water John Hopson
- Something in the water Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Something in the water J C Lawrence
- Something in the water Sean Kelly
- Something in the water rayzam
- Something in the water J C Lawrence
- Something in the water Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Something in the water J C Lawrence
- Something in the water Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Something in the water J C Lawrence
- Something in the water Travis Casey
- Something in the water J C Lawrence
- Something in the water Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Something in the water J C Lawrence
- Something in the water Joe Andrieu
- Something in the water Sean Kelly
- Something in the water Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Something in the water Hulbert, Leland
- Something in the water Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Something in the water Hulbert, Leland
- Something in the water Matt Mihaly
- Something in the water Jon Morrow
- Something in the water Trump
- Something in the water Matt Mihaly
- Something in the water Matt Chatterley
- Something in the water Sparrowhawk
- Something in the water Matt Mihaly
- Something in the water Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Something in the water Tamzen Cannoy
- Something in the water Matt Mihaly
- Something in the water Tomas Clark
- Something in the water Matt Mihaly
- Something in the water Marc Bowden
- Something in the water Koster, Raph
- Something in the water Jessica Mulligan
- Something in the water SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- Something in the water Miroslav Silovic
- Something in the water Travis Casey
On Thursday 26 July 2001 12:16 am, J C Lawrence wrote:
> Travis Casey <efindel@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Wednesday, July 25, 2001, 1:57:08 AM, J C Lawrence wrote:
>>> Caliban Tiresias Darklock <caliban@darklock.com> wrote:
>>>> J C Lawrence <claw@2wire.com> wrote:
>> I'd say that the first thing you have to do is define what RP is.
>> I've given my own definition of RP many times here before, but to
>> save anyone from having to dig in the archives, here it is:
>> Roleplaying is making decisions about "what does my character
>> do next" in character. That is, such decisions should be based
>> on the question, "What would this character do, given his/her
>> knowledge of the situation, current physical/mental state,
>> etc?"
>> There are, of course, other people who have different
>> definitions. One common definition seems to be:
>> Roleplaying is interacting with others in character.
>> I'll refer to these as definition #1 and #2, respectively, in
>> this message.
> The essential difference being that the former is an internal
> perception (you of your character) and the latter an external
> (others of your character). In essence they are both attempting
> to define the same thing -- its just the viewpoints are different.
I don't think they are attempting to define in the same thing. In
fact, the reason that I originally formally stated my definition is
that I was disagreeing with people who believed that a single-player
computer game could not be a roleplaying game, because there was no
one in it to roleplay with.
By definition #1, one can roleplay in a single-player game, whether
it be a computer game or a paper game. By definition #2, one
cannot, short of AI strong enough that the computer can be counted
as an "other".
>>> Posit:
>>> Player value requires communication.
>>> Counter:
>>> No communication equals no value.
>>> The silent type who stands about and says nothing communicates
>>> nothing and therefore (arguably) has little/no value to the game
>>> or other players within the game context.
>> Which matters, *if* the purpose of the system is to reward those
>> who are of value to the game and/or other players. With a stated
>> goal of "rewarding roleplaying", though, we can't make that
>> assumption.
> So:
> If a bear roleplays in the woods, does anybody notice?
The bear certainly does. :-) Further, others may become aware of
the bear's roleplaying -- or lack thereof -- later.
Example:
I'm playing a character who is supposed to love fresh blueberries.
My character is walking through a forest, alone, and comes across a
blueberry bush is season. There's no one around, so I know I won't
get any RP points for eating the blueberries, so I don't eat any of
them, and just go on past.
Later, Boffo, who is looking for me, comes to the blueberry bush.
He sees the tracks going by, so he knows someone has been here.
Since none of the blueberries have been eaten, Boffo concludes that
it was not me, and does not follow the tracks.
Even though a player's character is alone, that player's roleplaying
-- or failure to roleplay -- can impact later events.
> Or perhaps more significantly:
> What value are RP points to a character who doesn't observably
> RP in the presence of others?
I don't think that's the question you probably meant to ask... as
you've written it, though, the answer is obviously that they have
value according to what that character can do with them.
>> Using definition #1, such a system has nothing to do with
>> roleplaying at all -- you can roleplay without ever interacting
>> with another character, and you can contribute great value to the
>> game without ever actually roleplaying.
> Quite.
> Does the fact that you have a saintly soul or are in fact a chess
> genius have any relevant value if that fact is never revealed or
> detectable?
Insufficient data -- value relevant to what or whom? It may be very
relevant to the player of the character, since either one could
color other decisions that the character makes. Perhaps not in a
way that makes these aspects of the character obvious to others, but
it will still color them.
Example:
In a D&D campaign I am currently playing in, at one point the
characters had been underground on a mission for more than three
months. I decided that my character was becoming depressed -- but
since my character was a priest of the goddess of life, and felt a
responsibility to support and uplift the party, he would keep up a
false front and pretend not to be depressed.
Now, since this was a paper game, I was able to simply tell the GM
that my character was depressed. Later, I decided that my character
was starting to verge on being suicidal. This, of course, affected
his relationship with his goddess for the worse, impacting his
spells. In an online game, such an effect could be achieved by GM
intervention, but might also be achieved through watching
roleplaying in some way.
Further, while the other players didn't know that he was depressed,
they did notice some of the outcomes of that... e.g., that he had a
harder time casting his spells, and that, towards the end, he was
volunteering for dangerous jobs a lot more than he used to.
Another thing to consider is that, while a fact about a character's
personality might not have been revealed or detected yet, that
doesn't mean that will always be true. To give another example from
the same game, I've decided that my cleric has fallen in love with a
fighter played by another player. However, he knows that another
character in the party is in love with her, and that for him to
express his love could cause problems in the party. Thus, again,
this is something that I'm roleplaying, but that the other
characters and their players do not know about. Indeed, since this
wouldn't affect any game mechanical things, I haven't even informed
the GM. However, it has colored my character's actions towards that
character -- he's talking to her more often, trying to be close to
her in the marching order, etc.
However, even though no one knows it yet, it's still possible that a
situation could come up in which my character's love for the other
would be revealed -- and in that case, the other players would be
able to look back over my character's past actions and see that he
was indeed in love with her, but unwilling to express it openly.
To me, this sort of thing is a necessary part of roleplaying, if
you're going to do it well. Have you ever had the experience of
realizing that a friend of yours believes or desires something, and
then, seeing their past actions in light of that new knowledge,
knowing when they came to that? Or having old conversations with
them suddenly take on a new significance? IMHO, in a
well-roleplayed game, those sorts of things should happen -- and for
that to happen requires that people roleplay even things about
themselves that other players don't know yet.
>> IMHO, "rewarding roleplaying" is a very bad specification for
>> what you want a system to do. In order to implement a real
>> system, the goals ought to be better defined.
> Underneath is a semi-Pavlovian model which assumes that positive
> rewards for Good Behaviour will encourage further Good Behaviour
> (Pavlov concentrated more on negative reinforcement). Central to
> such an approach is the idea that the Good Behaviour can be both
> defined and quantified, and then, that given such (which is
> tacitly assumed) that a system can be arranged which created the
> positive reinforcement loop.
> Not sure how many of you have kids: the cherry and stick
> approach does NOT always work, or even work reliably in the
> cases it does work.
True. On the other hand, it does work better than doing nothing.
> You've defined two definitional models for RP: one player
> viewpoint centric and one player base viewpoint centric. I'd
> argue that under definition #1 RP is neither mechanically
> definable or quantifiable, and that under definition #2 the
> problem is both large and unmalleable.
> However that doesn't seem the critical point. The critical aspect
> seems to be:
> Type #1 RP is explicitly undetectable and undefinable by
> mechanical systems.
Right now, yes -- but there's nothing that makes it *in principle*
undetectable and undefinable. After all, human GMs manage to work
with it. We may need strong AI to handle it, but I'm one of those
people who believes that strong AI will probably be achieved within
the next 50 to 100 years.
> Type #2 RP *may* be detectable and quantifiable, but its known
> to be a hard problem.
Yep. And, more importantly from my point of view, it's not what I
want to reward. It may be a halfway decent approximation, but
personally, I at least want to keep #1 in mind as a goal.
> Now, if we're only talking about externally viewed RP that
> significantly simplifies the problemscape -- __ALL__ we are
> interested in are the activities of players that are subject to
> being viewed by other players and thereby judged.
Why limit ourselves to what other players view, though? We can
detect emotes, says, etc. even when other players aren't present, so
they can also be checked for consistency. Further, you could add
commands to let players "roleplay" to the system -- e.g., a "think"
command that the system monitors, but which is not echoed to other
players in any way.
To put it another way: definitions #1 and #2 are only two
definitions. There are many more possible ones.
> That doesn't implicitly select against the taciturn (other than
> socially), but it does select against the wall flower of the
> Shakespearean wanna-be who recites to empty halls where nobody can
> hear. This latter case however doesn't fit definition #2, and so
> doesn't apply.
> I can see why this doesn't make many RP'ers happy as there seems
> to be a common confusion between the two definitional types such
> taht a firm believer in definition #1 will then think he is
> applying that definition to others in his game when in fact the
> simple fact of the application of the definition to a character
> not his own EXPLICITLY makes it an applications of definition #2.
No, it does not. You're assuming that the person is only capable of
observing the other character's social interactions with others,
since that is all #2 includes. However, a person could get
information about another's roleplaying through several other
channels -- especially if that person is a gamemaster in a game.
For example, my telling my GM that my character was depressed was
not interacting with others in character -- but it was roleplaying.
>> Or, to put it another way: The appearance of roleplaying is more
>> valued than the actuality of it.
> Rephrasing:
> Things are only important if groups of people agree they are
> important. If a group decides that a certain form of behaviour
> is RP and is desirable, then, well, it is.
Sure, I'll accept that. However, they still have to define what
that is, which is the essential part of my point. Just saying, "we
want to encourage roleplaying" without defining roleplaying is only
going to confuse things.
>>>> An active staff involved in maintaining a desired environment
>>>> is helpful for RP, while it tends to get in the way of
>>>> game-oriented play.
>>> You can't kill the beggar!
>>> Why not? He's worth 15 XP!
>>> But he's a beggar! You're supposed to pity him and give him
>>> spare change and maybe some scraps of food.
>>> Screw that! I only need 20 more XP to level and he'll do
>>> nicely for most of it. How many XP is the little orphan
>>> worth? Maybe I'll just stab the leper. That should be worth
>>> at least 5.
>> Logical consequences within the game world can help as
>> well... and, for that matter, getting rid of the whole
>> "shoot-and-loot" D&D-style experience structure can as well.
> John Hopson's recent post would seem to have hit that one.
Do you have a date for that post? I think I must have missed it...
In any case, though, many paper RPGs have provided alternative means
of advancement besides "shoot-and-loot" or "XP through roleplaying".
Some of these resemble methods that some muds use. (E.g., "XP for
accomplishing story goals" is similar to "XP for completing
quests".)
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) - Something in the water rayzam
- Something in the water Travis Casey
- Something in the water Ian Hess
- Something in the water Marc Bowden
- Something in the water J C Lawrence
- Something in the water Marc Bowden
- Something in the water J C Lawrence
- Something in the water Dave Rickey
- Something in the water Marc Bowden
- Something in the water Travis Casey
- Something in the water Marian Griffith
- Something in the water J C Lawrence
- Something in the water Eli Stevens
- Something in the water J C Lawrence
- Something in the water Adam Martin
- Something in the water Dave Rickey
- Something in the water Dan MacDonald
- Something in the water Adam Martin
- Something in the water John Hopson
- Something in the water rayzam
- Something in the water Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gearing up against GEAR Ted Milker
- Gearing up against GEAR Dan MacDonald
- Gearing up against GEAR Sean Kelly
- Gearing up against GEAR Vincent Archer
- Gearing up against GEAR Travis Nixon
- Gearing up against GEAR Kevin Littlejohn
- Gearing up against GEAR Sean Kelly
- Gearing up against GEAR Justin Rogers
- Gearing up against GEAR Sean K
- Gearing up against GEAR Alistair Milne
- Gearing up against GEAR Travis Nixon
- Gearing up against GEAR Vincent Archer
- Gearing up against GEAR J C Lawrence
- Gearing up against GEAR Vincent Archer
- Gearing up against GEAR Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Gearing up against GEAR Sean K
- Gearing up against GEAR Vincent Archer
- Gearing up against GEAR Sean K
- Gearing up against GEAR Dave Rickey
- Gearing up against GEAR Derek Licciardi
- Gearing up against GEAR Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gearing up against GEAR Marc Bowden
- Gearing up against GEAR J C Lawrence
- Gearing up against GEAR Travis Nixon
- Gearing up against GEAR F. Randall Farmer
- OT: Writer needs help from people in the gaming industry Alex Oren
- What is cheating? [Was: Strong encryption for authentication] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Joe Andrieu
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) J C Lawrence
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Sean Kelly
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Joe Andrieu
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Sean K
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) SeronisROTv3@aol.com
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Joe Andrieu
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) J C Lawrence
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Sean Kelly
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Adam Martin
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Jon Lambert
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Kevin Littlejohn
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Real-world skills luke@rocketship.com
- Real-world skills Mathieu Castelli
- Real-world skills J C Lawrence
- Real-world skills Kwon Ekstrom
- Real-world skills rayzam
- Design patterns for game database implementations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Design patterns for game database implementations Sean Kelly
- Design patterns for game database implementations J C Lawrence
- Design patterns for game database implementations J C Lawrence
- Real-world skills Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Real-world skills Chris Lloyd
- Real-world skills Justin Rogers
- Real-world skills Koster, Raph
- Real-world skills Travis Casey
- Real-world skills J C Lawrence
- Real-world skills Luke Parrish
- Real-world skills Dave Talk21
- Real-world skills R.Fry
- Real-world skills Dave Talk21
- Real-world skills Luke Parrish
- Real-world skills Dave Talk21
- Real-world skills Bruce Mitchener
- Real-world skills Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Mud Clients (was Real-world skills) Kwon Ekstrom
- Mud Clients (was Real-world skills) David Bennett
- Real-world skills Dave Talk21
- Real-world skills Justin Rogers
- Real-world skills Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Real-world skills J C Lawrence
- Real-world skills Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Real-world skills J C Lawrence
- Real-world skills Dave Talk21
- Real-world skills Luke Parrish
- Real-world skills Dave Talk21
- Real-world skills Adam Martin
- Players playing NPCs Vladimir Prelovac
- Players playing NPCs Christopher Allen
- Real-world skills Koster, Raph
- Real-world skills Bruce Mitchener
- Real-world skills Andrew Wilson
- Game Survey Michael Tresca
- Game Survey Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Game Survey Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Game Survey J C Lawrence
- MMORPG Construction Kit Koster, Raph
- MMORPG Construction Kit Lee Sheldon
- MMORPG Construction Kit Lee Sheldon
- MMORPG Construction Kit Lee Sheldon
- MMORPG Construction Kit Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MMORPG Construction Kit J C Lawrence
- MMORPG Construction Kit Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- MMORPG Construction Kit Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Christopher Allen
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Adam Martin
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Hulbert, Leland
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Chris Gray
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] David Loeser
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Dave Rickey
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Jon Lambert
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] F. Randall Farmer
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Travis Nixon
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] F. Randall Farmer
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Kevin Littlejohn
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Jessica Mulligan
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] F. Randall Farmer
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Frank Crowell
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Adam Martin
- DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] F Farmer
- Re[4]: Something in the water Travis Casey
- Population divisions (wasTo good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG?) Matt Mihaly
- Community feeling (was: To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG?) Alex Kay
- Community feeling (was: To good to be TRUE, in an M MPORPG?) Koster, Raph
- Community feeling (was: To good to be TRUE, in an M MPORPG?) J C Lawrence
- Community feeling (was: To good to be TRUE, in an M MPORPG?) Vincent Archer
- Community feeling (was: To good to be TRUE, in an M MPORPG?) Koster, Raph
- Community feeling (was: To good to be TRUE, in an M MPORPG?) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Community feeling (was: To good to be TRUE, in an MMPORPG?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Re:DNA Game Patent [was Randy's Resume] Jessica Mulligan
- Multi-threading ( was: TECH DGN: a few mud server design questions (long)) Jon Lambert
- Wilderness Freeman, Jeff
- Wilderness Trump
- Wilderness Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Wilderness Edward Glowacki
- Wilderness Dave Rickey
- Wilderness Sean Kelly
- Wilderness John Buehler
- Wilderness Brian Hook
- Wilderness John Buehler
- Wilderness Koster, Raph
- Wilderness Ling Lo
- Wilderness Freeman, Jeff
- Wilderness Nathan F. Yospe
- Wilderness Ling Lo
- Wilderness Nathan F. Yospe
- Wilderness John Buehler
- Wilderness Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Wilderness Hulbert, Leland
- Wilderness John Buehler
- Wilderness Kwon Ekstrom
- Wilderness Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Wilderness Matt Mihaly
- Wilderness Freeman, Jeff
- Wilderness John Buehler
- Wilderness Nathan F. Yospe
- Wilderness Travis Casey
- Wilderness Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Wilderness Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Wilderness Koster, Raph
- Wilderness Dave Rickey
- Wilderness Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Wilderness Brian Hook
- Wilderness Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Wilderness Brian Hook
- Wilderness Freeman, Jeff
- Wilderness Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Wilderness Freeman, Jeff
- Wilderness John Buehler
- Wilderness lhulbert@hotmail.com
- Wilderness Matt Mihaly
- Wilderness John Buehler
- Wilderness Matt Mihaly
- Wilderness John Buehler
- Wilderness Matt Mihaly
- Wilderness Freeman, Jeff
- Wilderness Madrona Tree
- Wilderness Nathan F. Yospe
- Wilderness Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Wilderness Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Wilderness John Buehler
- Wilderness Adam Martin
- Wilderness Koster, Raph
- Wilderness John Buehler
- Wilderness Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Wilderness Adam Martin
- Wilderness Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Wilderness David Loeser
- Wilderness Matt Owen
- Wilderness Peter Tyson
- Wilderness Adam Martin
- Death among Friends Jon Morrow
- Death among Friends Tommy Wang
- Death among Friends Jon Morrow
- Death among Friends Matt Mihaly
- Death among Friends Jon Morrow
- Death among Friends Matt Mihaly
- Death among Friends shren
- Death among Friends Michael Tresca
- Death among Friends John Buehler
- Death among Friends Jon Morrow
- Death among Friends Matt Mihaly
- Death among Friends Michael Tresca
- BSD licenses Ross Dmochowski
- Hoping for more... (interfaces) Tommy Wang
- Hoping for more... (interfaces) Matt Mihaly
- Hoping for more... (interfaces) Ling Lo
- Hoping for more... (interfaces) Matt Mihaly
- Hoping for more... (interfaces) Jon Morrow
- Hoping for more... (interfaces) Kwon Ekstrom
- d20 shannon hall
- Group sizes and MUDs as sport? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- free release of graphical MUD Chris Gray