April 2001
- Camelot Beta 3 Dave Rickey
- Camelot Beta 3 Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Camelot Beta 3 Vincent Archer
- Camelot Beta 3 Derek Licciardi
- Camelot Beta 3 Darrin Hyrup
- Camelot Beta 3 Vincent Archer
- Camelot Beta 3 Dave Rickey
- Camelot Beta 3 Darrin Hyrup
- Camelot Beta 3 Auli
- Room Searching Jared
- Room Searching shren
- Room Searching Travis Casey
- Room Searching Eli Stevens
- Room Searching Derek Licciardi
- Room Searching Adam Martin
- Room Searching Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Room Searching Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Room Searching David Bennett
- Sims Online -- WAS: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Zak Jarvis
- Mera '01 report Cassandra
- Mera '01 report Jake Song
- Mera '01 report J C Lawrence
- Mera '01 report Jake Song
- Mera '01 report J C Lawrence
- Mera '01 report Cassandra
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) McQuaid, Brad
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Derek Licciardi
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Jim S
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Freeman, Jeff
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Vincent Archer
- www.innbetweenworlds.com Klimon, Ian
- MERA '01 followup: Success critera Zak Jarvis
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs John Buehler
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- ADMIN: HTML email, the reasons against J C Lawrence
- Need for a departure from reality? Matt Mihaly
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Koster, Raph
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Timothy Dang
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Koster, Raph
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Timothy Dang
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Madman Across the Water
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Derek Licciardi
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Vincent Archer
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Sellers, Michael
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Zak Jarvis
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Jerrith
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Jerrith
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Mod el Space Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space shren
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space shren
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Philip
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Hal Bonnin
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Kwon Ekstrom
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space rayzam
- RE:The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Sellers, Michael
- Sv: Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Nicolai Hansen
- ADMIN: Subject header maintenance (was: Broken currencies) J C Lawrence
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Jim S
- Broken currencies Koster, Raph
- Broken currencies Lars Duening
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Lars Duening
- Broken currencies Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Timothy Dang
- Broken currencies Phillip Lenhardt
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Phillip Lenhardt
- Broken currencies John Buehler
- Broken currencies Derek Licciardi
- Broken currencies Ben Sizer
- Broken currencies Adam Martin
- Broken currencies Ben Sizer
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Timothy Dang
- Broken currencies Michael Dekker
- Broken currencies Miroslav Silovic
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Timothy Dang
- [DGN] Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Ananda Dawnsinger
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Baron, Jonathan
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Sellers, Michael
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Baron, Jonathan
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Dave Rickey
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) F. Randall Farmer
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Lee Sheldon
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) shren
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) Matt Mihaly
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) John Buehler
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) Matt Mihaly
- A User's Guide to TCP Windows J C Lawrence
- Balance J C Lawrence
- Economic & Derek Licciardi
- Economic & Matt Mihaly
- Economic & Timothy Dang
- Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken economies) Matt Mihaly
- Money supply in game economies (formerly Brokeneconomies) geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken eco nomies) Koster, Raph
- Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken economies) Timothy Dang
- [DGN] Balancing Melee/Ranged Combat Kwon Ekstrom
- Room Searching - how about doors? Gavin Doughtie
- Tracking Hulbert, Leland
- Online Games get an overview Koster, Raph
- [DGN] Money supply in game economies (formerly Brok en economies) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [DSG] Concrete idea behind currency (was: The Monad and Broken Economies) Paul Schwanz
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Matt Mihaly
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Baron, Jonathan
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Matt Mihaly
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Baron, Jonathan
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Sellers, Michael
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Matt Mihaly
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Matt Mihaly
- Identity and Economies [was Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken eco nomies) ] Joe Andrieu
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economies) Dave Rickey
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economie s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economies) Dave Rickey
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economie s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Baron, Jonathan
- Distributed Muds Jim Craig
- [DSG] Money supply in game economies (was: Broken Economies) Paul Schwanz
- TECH DGN: (was Broken currencies) Nathan F.Yospe
- [DESIGN] Economic & Marian Griffith
- [DESIGN] Economic & Derek Licciardi
- [DESIGN] Economic & Marian Griffith
- [DESIGN] Economic & John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Economic & Travis Nixon
- [DESIGN] Economic & Travis Casey
- [DESIGN] Economic & Matt Mihaly
- [DESIGN] Economic & Travis Nixon
- [DESIGN] Economic & Matt Mihaly
- Author Unknown (was: Money supply in game economies) Emil Eifrém
- TECH: Distributed Muds Emil Eifrém
- TECH: Distributed Muds Jim Craig
- TECH: Distributed Muds Frank Crowell
- TECH: Distributed Muds Colin Coghill
- TECH: Distributed Muds Vincent Archer
- TECH: Distributed Muds Derek Snider
- TECH: Distributed Muds Vincent Archer
- TECH: Distributed Muds J C Lawrence
- TECH: Distributed Muds Derek Snider
- TECH: Distributed Muds J C Lawrence
- TECH: Distributed Muds Bruce
- TECH: Distributed Muds J C Lawrence
- TECH: Distributed Muds Vincent Archer
- TECH: Distributed Muds Derek Snider
- TECH: Distributed Muds J C Lawrence
- TECH: Distributed Muds Derek Snider
- TECH: Distributed Muds Brian Hook
- TECH: Distributed Muds Derek Snider
- TECH: Distributed Muds Brian Hook
- TECH: Distributed Muds Adam Martin
- Shattered World's economy John W Pierce
- Shattered World's economy Erik Jarvi
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) J C Lawrence
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Frank Crowell
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Lars Duening
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Vincent Archer
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Dave Rickey
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Vincent Archer
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) shren
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) John Buehler
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Ian Macintosh
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) J C Lawrence
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Travis Casey
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Vincent Archer
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
- RG Interview Cassandra
- NEWS DGN Wired News article about EQ Zak Jarvis
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Vincent Archer
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) shren
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Freeman, Jeff
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Derek Licciardi
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Vincent Archer
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Freeman, Jeff
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Adam Martin
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Bob McFakename
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Lynx
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Matt Mihaly
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Bob McFakename
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Matt Mihaly
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Phillip Lenhardt
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Matt Mihaly
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Travis Casey
Wednesday, April 18, 2001, 3:31:24 AM, Matt Mihaly
<the_logos@achaea.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Bob McFakename wrote:
>> From: "Matt Mihaly" <the_logos@achaea.com>
[snipping a bunch that I don't have any interest in commenting on]
>> (i'm oversimplifying a bit, obviously - castles had millitary
>> purposes as well.)
> I'm not sure what relevance castles have to economic systems
> generally, but ok. It should also be pointed out that the castle
> itself and the land it was on was generally worth WAY more than
> anything inside the castle if you don't count the people (and
> oftentimes if you do count the people). I think maybe we talked past
> each other here somewhere.
It should also be noted that while a medieval lord/lady might "own the
land" from a practical point of view, from both a legal and a social
point of view, things were very different back then. Time for some
vast generalizations about Christian Europe:
No human agency was considered to "own the land" -- the king or queen
held the land by divine right, and was God's steward for the land and
the people on it. They in turn had great nobles who were stewards of
portions of the land, who in turn had lesser nobles, and so on. In
return for the position of stewardship over the land, nobles swore to
support those above them, and were generally obligated to perform
certain services and give certain tributes to those above them (e.g.,
they might be obligated to provide a certain number of fully-equipped,
trained knights whenever their overlord might call on them to do so,
but not for more than a set amount of time in the year).
Now that was the legal theory. In practice, getting rid of a lesser
noble who wouldn't fulfill his/her duties could be very difficult --
especially if that noble could forge alliances with other nobles.
While the nobles might not legally own the land, they often felt and
acted as if they did.
>>> If you wish to be rich and virtually eliminate your risk of losing
>>> your money, invest in the safest investment in the world: US
>>> Treasuries.
>> Thanks for the advice. How does it apply to a medieval economy?
> I have no idea. Again, I wasn't aware that we were talking about
> medieval economies specifically.
Do the same basic thing: throw your weight behind the government and
the church. It's not quite as safe an investment, but nothing is
quite as safe, the times being what they are.
> Historically, and I am not an expert in historical taxation methods,
> sad to say, I believe that governments were generally restricted in
> the taxation methods they could employ by the information available
> to them. An income tax would have meant nothing as many if not most
> people didn't have an income. They lived hand to mouth. So, what was
> generally taxed was property, whether land or physical property. It
> was quite a game to try and hide your stuff when the tax man came
> around so that he'd assess you less taxes.
At the lowest level, rents and usage taxes were common. Since the
peasantry generally didn't have money to speak of, these were usually
taken in kind. For example, the lord might require that all of the
able-bodied peasant men spend one day a week working for him in some
capacity (helping do maintenance on the castle, working in the lord's
fields, watching his livestock, or even doing things like beating the
brush for him when he went hunting). Often, the lord would own the
only mill in the area, and the mill would charge a percentage of your
grain in order to grind it for you.
Tolls were quite common -- toll bridges, toll roads, toll drawbridges
(i.e., any ship that wants to pass has to pay a toll), tolls for
entering a town, etc.
Towns tended to have a greater emphasis on money as a medium of
exchange, and were correspondingly more likely to levy taxes in the
form of money. Establishing value was difficult, so taxes were
generally on a countable basis -- e.g., based on how many people a
family had, or how many apprentices a master had, or how many rooms an
inn had.
Like the lords, though, towns also often demanded service as a form of
tax. For example, the town might require able-bodied citizens to
serve on fire brigades when needed, in the town militia when needed,
and on a rotating basis in the city guard.
(It was often possible to buy your way out of service taxes, either by
bribing someone or through official, legal means. Thus, for example,
someone might have the option of serving in the militia when called or
of giving money -- which the city would then use to hire mercenaries.)
> Asking who owns the property is a difficult question, because
> ownership isn't a thing. It's a matter of perception. You can say
> you own a piece of property, but I can just as easily say I own
> it. How does it get decided? Whoever has the most guns on his side
> wins.
Or whoever decides to give up first loses. :-) For example, while an
overlord might be able to raise a big enough army to pry a rebellious
vassal out of a castle, doing so would mean a long seige, during which
the overlord would be uncovering his *own* castle, possibly tempting
others to try to unseat him, and which would take a considerable
portion of the 90 days of military service he can demand in a year
from his other vassals, leaving him unable to call on them if another
need comes up later.
Which isn't to disagree, but just to point out that, while one side
may have the bigger guns, they may decide that what they're losing is
not worth the effort it would take to regain it.
> Why did I bring this up? Because it's necessary to answer your
> question. Does the city own all the properties? Well, I
> dunno. Depends on how you define ownership. It has the power to do
> with them as it will. But then, the US government has the power to
> do whatever it wants with any property in its border. Does it own
> the entire US? I dunno. Perspective question I'd say.
One thing to consider is that "ownership" consists of a lot of rights,
which can be subdivided. Thus, one person may "own" an area of land
in that they can put a house on it, while another "owns" the mineral
rights to that land, and a third "owns" the water rights.
From a legal point of view, the US government owns almost all the land
within its borders, but has sold some rights to some of that land.
The government does, however, retain certain other rights -- for
example, the right of sovereignty. You cannot legally declare your
own nation within US borders, because that would be an attempt to
exercise the right of sovereignty over your land, and the US
government owns that right.
> In any case, the cities would, I'd imagine, simply raise the
> property tax on a non-producing property so that the owner had to
> pay up an equivalent amount to what he/she would be contributing if
> he/she had a productive shop.
Yep. This is the approach that medieval governments generally used --
if you can't afford to pay back whatever obligations you incurred by
accepting the land, your overlord has the right to remove you and
install a new tenant.
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Mordengaard
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- Where are we now? Matt Mihaly
- Where are we now? McManus, Susan
- Where are we now? Matt Mihaly
- Where are we now? Kwon Ekstrom
- Where are we now? Brian Hook
- Where are we now? Kwon Ekstrom
- Where are we now? Michael Tresca
- Where are we now? S. Patrick Gallaty
- Where are we now? Greg Munt
- Where are we now? S. Patrick Gallaty
- Where are we now? Matt Mihaly
- Where are we now? Koster, Raph
- Where are we now? Greg Munt
- Where are we now? Matt Mihaly
- Where are we now? Greg Munt
- Where are we now? Matt Mihaly
- Where are we now? Bruce
- Where are we now? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Where are we now? Koster, Raph
- Where are we now? Richard A. Bartle
- Where are we now? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Where are we now? Bruce
- Where are we now? Greg Munt
- Where are we now? Koster, Raph
- Where are we now? rayzam
- Where are we now? Madman Across the Water
- Where are we now? Bryce Harrington
- Where are we now? Madman Across the Water
- Where are we now? Freeman, Jeff
- TECH: DBM vs BDB speeds (was: AmigaMud DB questions) Bruce
- fault tolerance and character files Steven Fleischaker
- fault tolerance and character files Kwon Ekstrom
- fault tolerance and character files Bruce
- fault tolerance and character files Kwon Ekstrom
- fault tolerance and character files Vincent Archer