April 2001
- Camelot Beta 3 Dave Rickey
- Camelot Beta 3 Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Camelot Beta 3 Vincent Archer
- Camelot Beta 3 Derek Licciardi
- Camelot Beta 3 Darrin Hyrup
- Camelot Beta 3 Vincent Archer
- Camelot Beta 3 Dave Rickey
- Camelot Beta 3 Darrin Hyrup
- Camelot Beta 3 Auli
- Room Searching Jared
- Room Searching shren
- Room Searching Travis Casey
- Room Searching Eli Stevens
- Room Searching Derek Licciardi
- Room Searching Adam Martin
- Room Searching Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Room Searching Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Room Searching David Bennett
- Sims Online -- WAS: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Zak Jarvis
- Mera '01 report Cassandra
- Mera '01 report Jake Song
- Mera '01 report J C Lawrence
- Mera '01 report Jake Song
- Mera '01 report J C Lawrence
- Mera '01 report Cassandra
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) McQuaid, Brad
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Derek Licciardi
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Jim S
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Freeman, Jeff
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Vincent Archer
- www.innbetweenworlds.com Klimon, Ian
- MERA '01 followup: Success critera Zak Jarvis
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs John Buehler
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- ADMIN: HTML email, the reasons against J C Lawrence
- Need for a departure from reality? Matt Mihaly
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Koster, Raph
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Timothy Dang
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Koster, Raph
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Timothy Dang
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Madman Across the Water
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Derek Licciardi
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Vincent Archer
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Sellers, Michael
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Zak Jarvis
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Jerrith
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Jerrith
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space John Buehler
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space John Buehler
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
At 02:06 AM 4/7/01 -0700, JB wrote:
> You're assuming a single goal, which is to be combat effective. I
> don't see why druids should be combat effective, nor rogues.
Because traditionally in these types of games -- even in pen'n'paper,
where restrictions on content and flow practically don't exist --
combat is the focus of entertainment. This is particularly emphasized
in computer games because it's an easy system to focus on and balance
and doesn't require "fuzzy thinking" such as trying to implement rules
for sneaking, freeform infiltration, politics, diplomacy, etc.
In other words, combat is relatively easy to quantify. Non-combat
skills, except for maybe trade skills, are more difficult to quantify
into a well defined system.
> Rogues are combat effective in rare circumstances. The bulk of the
> entertainment for rogues should be sneaking around, skulking across
> high wires, listening to conversations unobserved and so on.
I completely agree, however this (so far) has been extremely difficult
to accomplish in the computer medium because of the very freeform
nature by which a rogue operates.
> The trend in the industry seems to assume that the only interesting
> thing that we can offer players is advancement based on the
> destruction of bad guys and riches (also based on the destruction of
> the bad guys). Surely other avenues of entertainment can be
> provided by games.
Absolutely, however at this point in time the commercial emphasis is
on combat and, based on the popularity of EQ and Diablo, I would guess
that right now that's what many players want. I'm not defending that,
just stating that this seems to be a reasonable trend right now.
Other avenues definitely do exist and should be pursued -- the
conversations I've had with Raph indicate to me that he believes there
should be many different and unrelated forms of advancement for a
player to pursue, and I would dare say that Raph is one of the most
influential designers in this genre -- however they are A.) more
difficult to implement; B.) more difficult to quantify; and C.) more
difficult to sell to players and publishers.
In theory, lots of people want to be Conan or Gandalf. Vanquishing
bad guys is a very popular activity.
> Given the idea that head-to-head combat between girl scouts and
> roman gladiators doesn't need to be balanced because not all
> professions are about combat, this isn't a concern for me.
But head to head combat between two combat professionals should (so
the argument goes) be balanced. Archer vs. swordsman. I don't
believe anyone really brought up non-combatant vs. combatant. And
given the subject line of this thread, I would say that arguing
non-combatant vs. combatant not fitting into your universe is, well,
beside the point.
> profession that they've chosen. Why a 37th level druid wants to go
> into a dungeon is beyond me.
Because it's there. That's how many players -- especially those in
combat oriented RPGs -- think. Players feel that they have the right,
by virtue of purchasing your product, to experience as much content as
they can reach. If they are "unreasonably" denied content, they get
frustrated and upset.
For example, say there is a dungeon called Minutia Catacombs. Only
small races can adventure there. Hey, that's cool, right? Wrong.
Because while it adds flavor, that's a lot of designer effort that
maybe 1/3rd of the players can enjoy or experience. And if it's a
high level dungeon, then someone that has spent all their time as an
ogre shaman is going to be pissed because they've been denied that
experience unless they're willing to restart the game as a small race
and game up to the necessary level.
> If they're playing a druid, they should be interested in the
> entertainment that the game provides to druids.
That's a bit of an elitist attitude. If they paid money to play the
game, they should be able to experience how they want it so long as it
doesn't disrupt the game for others. Some people would argue that the
mere thought of a druid in a dungeon would disrupt their game, but
they're the extremist version of the anti-powergamer and suffer from
the same delusions that powergamers do.
I remember being upset with X-Wing because I would try to play past a
mission that was clearly impossible for me to accomplish. I didn't
"get" the mission, but because I couldn't cheat past it (enabling
cheating in X-Wing didn't allow you to complete a mission IIRC), the
game was basically over for me.
Looking Glass had a similar philosophy -- play the game THEY intended
you to play, not the game YOU want to play, and I personally don't
care for that philosophy. I probably would have finished Thief if I
could have warped past the Tomb Raider levels.
> If they want to go into dungeons and kill stuff, let them become a
> mercenary. As before, let's not assume that the single way of
> gaining entertainment is killing things and getting their (screwy)
> possessions.
No one is assuming that ALL forms of entertainment have to be that
way, so I' not sure what your point is. The specific discussion was
ranged vs. melee combat, so I'm a little confused why you're riffing
out over issues that don't seem to even pertain to the thread.
> Let them go away so that they can find the game that they enjoy
> playing. I've made comments before about the need to ensure that
> such players don't consider my game as even potentially interesting.
Er, okay...but I'm not sure how that pertains to the topic of ranged
vs. melee combat.
> Something that I have found odd is the fact that games seem to be
> predicated on delivering an exceptional experience. For example,
> becoming as powerful as Hercules or Gandalf. But the game is going
> to be structured one of two ways. Either all players can fairly
> easily achieve that power level and everyone eventually becomes
> Herculean (Galdalfian?), or players compete with each other to
> achieve that power level and only one becomes Herculean. In the
> first case, nobody is exceptional because all players eventually
> become Hercules. In the second, only a few are exception, meaning
> that the vast majority of players don't get to experience being
> Hercules.
This depends on whether the player is comparing himself to other
players or if he's comparing himself to the environment and/or his
previous self. You can easily tell that you're becoming a hero of
huge proportions when monsters you used to run from are now cowering
from you.
Take Everquest and remove all the other players from the game. You
can still see your character becoming exceptional and more powerful.
If you're competing with other players on that basis, so be it, but
you don't HAVE to compete with other players in order to feel bigger
and badder.
Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Mod el Space Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space shren
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space shren
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Philip
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Hal Bonnin
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Kwon Ekstrom
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space rayzam
- RE:The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Sellers, Michael
- Sv: Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Nicolai Hansen
- ADMIN: Subject header maintenance (was: Broken currencies) J C Lawrence
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Jim S
- Broken currencies Koster, Raph
- Broken currencies Lars Duening
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Lars Duening
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- [DGN] Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Ananda Dawnsinger
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Baron, Jonathan
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Sellers, Michael
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Baron, Jonathan
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Dave Rickey
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) F. Randall Farmer
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Lee Sheldon
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) shren
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) Matt Mihaly
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) John Buehler
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) Matt Mihaly
- A User's Guide to TCP Windows J C Lawrence
- Balance J C Lawrence
- Economic & Derek Licciardi
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- Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken economies) Matt Mihaly
- Money supply in game economies (formerly Brokeneconomies) geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken eco nomies) Koster, Raph
- Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken economies) Timothy Dang
- [DGN] Balancing Melee/Ranged Combat Kwon Ekstrom
- Room Searching - how about doors? Gavin Doughtie
- Tracking Hulbert, Leland
- Online Games get an overview Koster, Raph
- [DGN] Money supply in game economies (formerly Brok en economies) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [DSG] Concrete idea behind currency (was: The Monad and Broken Economies) Paul Schwanz
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Matt Mihaly
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- Identity and Economies [was Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken eco nomies) ] Joe Andrieu
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economies) Dave Rickey
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economie s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economies) Dave Rickey
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economie s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Baron, Jonathan
- Distributed Muds Jim Craig
- [DSG] Money supply in game economies (was: Broken Economies) Paul Schwanz
- TECH DGN: (was Broken currencies) Nathan F.Yospe
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- Author Unknown (was: Money supply in game economies) Emil Eifrém
- TECH: Distributed Muds Emil Eifrém
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- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) J C Lawrence
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- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Vincent Archer
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) shren
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) John Buehler
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Ian Macintosh
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
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- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
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- RG Interview Cassandra
- NEWS DGN Wired News article about EQ Zak Jarvis
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Vincent Archer
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) shren
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- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Bob McFakename
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- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Mordengaard
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- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Trump
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Dave Rickey
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- Movie grosses Matt Mihaly
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- StarPeace (was Money supply in game economies) Michael Dekker
- TECH: Distributed Muds Bobby Martin
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- [DESIGN] Economic & Currency Solutions Vincent Archer
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- Where are we now? Matt Mihaly
- Where are we now? Koster, Raph
- Where are we now? Greg Munt
- Where are we now? Matt Mihaly
- Where are we now? Greg Munt
- Where are we now? Matt Mihaly
- Where are we now? Bruce
- Where are we now? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Where are we now? Koster, Raph
- Where are we now? Richard A. Bartle
- Where are we now? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Where are we now? Bruce
- Where are we now? Greg Munt
- Where are we now? Koster, Raph
- Where are we now? rayzam
- Where are we now? Madman Across the Water
- Where are we now? Bryce Harrington
- Where are we now? Madman Across the Water
- Where are we now? Freeman, Jeff
- TECH: DBM vs BDB speeds (was: AmigaMud DB questions) Bruce
- fault tolerance and character files Steven Fleischaker
- fault tolerance and character files Kwon Ekstrom
- fault tolerance and character files Bruce
- fault tolerance and character files Kwon Ekstrom
- fault tolerance and character files Vincent Archer