April 2001
- Camelot Beta 3 Dave Rickey
- Camelot Beta 3 Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Camelot Beta 3 Vincent Archer
- Camelot Beta 3 Derek Licciardi
- Camelot Beta 3 Darrin Hyrup
- Camelot Beta 3 Vincent Archer
- Camelot Beta 3 Dave Rickey
- Camelot Beta 3 Darrin Hyrup
- Camelot Beta 3 Auli
- Room Searching Jared
- Room Searching shren
- Room Searching Travis Casey
- Room Searching Eli Stevens
- Room Searching Derek Licciardi
- Room Searching Adam Martin
- Room Searching Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Room Searching Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Room Searching David Bennett
- Sims Online -- WAS: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Zak Jarvis
- Mera '01 report Cassandra
- Mera '01 report Jake Song
- Mera '01 report J C Lawrence
- Mera '01 report Jake Song
- Mera '01 report J C Lawrence
- Mera '01 report Cassandra
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) McQuaid, Brad
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Derek Licciardi
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Jim S
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Freeman, Jeff
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Learning about MUDs (was: MUD-Dev digest, V ol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Vincent Archer
- www.innbetweenworlds.com Klimon, Ian
- MERA '01 followup: Success critera Zak Jarvis
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs John Buehler
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #303 - 17 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- ADMIN: HTML email, the reasons against J C Lawrence
- Need for a departure from reality? Matt Mihaly
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Koster, Raph
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Timothy Dang
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Koster, Raph
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Timothy Dang
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Madman Across the Water
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Derek Licciardi
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Vincent Archer
- Broken Economies (was Learning about MUDs) Sellers, Michael
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Zak Jarvis
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Jerrith
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Jerrith
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Brian Hook
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Mod el Space Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space shren
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space shren
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Philip
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Hal Bonnin
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Kwon Ekstrom
- Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space rayzam
- RE:The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Sellers, Michael
- Sv: Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Nicolai Hansen
- ADMIN: Subject header maintenance (was: Broken currencies) J C Lawrence
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
[I've renamed this thread to something more indicative of its
content. It was previously called Learning from MUDs.--matt]
On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Brian 'Psychochild' Green wrote:
> Going back to the paper I referenced, "Lessons from Lucasfilm's
> Habitat", it wasn't the economy itself that was really broken, it
> was the currency. People still traded items between themselves and
> carried on other economic activity, it's just that the medium of
> exchange was no longer the intended currency but rather other items.
Is this a bad thing? I don't know whether it is or not. I know that I
wouldn't call something broken simply because it's not behaving the
way the designers intended. There has to be a large tolerance in MUDs
for users to decide how things will work. A currency's value is in the
ability to store value more easily than physical objects, and its
ability to be neatly denominated in a way accepted nearly
universally. The design of most MUDs causes the concept of a currency
to have inherently less value. You can usually personally hold WAY
more than a real-life person could, and you can often store ridiculous
amounts of things basically for free. In real life, storage of
physical goods and moving physical goods is very expensive. If I had
to physically move a bunch of oil to you in order to buy my food,
buying food would be _very_ expensive to me, the consumer. As the
consumer can't take advantage of the economy of scale that a merchant
can, the consumer needs a currency to make any sort of real
consumerism (which drives a modern economy) feasible.
So, if the players don't use a currency, it strikes me that they don't
see much value in it. But the only value a currency has is that it
assists in other transactions. If there are no transactions they feel
they need currency for, is it terrible that they don't use it?
Essentially I'm asking whether this would seem to have any effect on
how much the players enjoy the world.
> A basic tenet of economics is that value is determined by utility
> and scarcity. Things that are more useful and harder to find are
> worth more than common items with little practical use. My car has
> more worth than your dull pebble.
Not to split hairs but value is not so neatly defined. Value, first of
all, depends on your philosophical outlook on life. For instance, one
of the central economic tenets of Marxism is his labor theory of value
outlined in his essay "Value, Price, and Profit." He explains that the
idea of commodities as crystallised social labour. I won't go through
the argument he uses unless someone is specifically interested, but
the idea is that " ...the relative values of commodities are
determined by the respective quantities or amounts of labour that are
fixed in them."
Even from a capitalist outlook, it is not defined merely by scarcity
and utility. In a capitalist economy, you can basically sum up by
looking at value as whatever you can get someone to pay. "Market
price" It is influenced by scarcity and utility, definitely. More
importantly, they're influenced heavily by the _perception_ of
scarcity and utility, which is an important distinction. The utility
and scarcity of Amazon stock has not been reduced by a factor of 90%
in the last year. People's perception of it has. And that's what
mind-bendingly smart professional economists forget all the
time. That's what nearly sunk the world economy in 1998 when Long Term
Capital Management went down (with 2 Nobel Laureates in economics on
their staff) in response to the baht's fall.
> Currency is a bit odd in this respect. While gold or the funny
> colored paper in my wallet doesn't always have inherent utility,
> society has agreed that it can be exchanged for goods and services,
> thereby giving it utility. Of course, a measure of scarcity makes
> for a better currency; for example, the paper in my wallet tends to
> have very specific identifying marks to separate it from forgeries.
Gold has utility though. It looks pretty and it's very
malleable. That's the original reason for its value. Now, of course,
it's a bit self-fulfilling as just saying "gold" conjures up images of
wealth.
> What happens in many games is that game currency somehow becomes
> more common than it should be. This usually happens because a) more
> money is found than is spent by the players, and b) there are bugs
> in the game (dupe bugs, etc). If game currency becomes too common,
> then people stop using it as a medium of exchange. Items with more
> scarcity (or a stable scarcity) become the new medium of exchange
> because the value of the items are higher.
So there becomes a significant cost (in time?) to moving the currency
itself in the case of high levels? The items presumably preserve their
value more than currency does too due to less item inflation (from
what you described).
> To see an extreme example of this, see if you can find anyone in
> EverQuest willing to sell items that don't drop anymore (mana
> stones, rubicite armor) for any reasonable amount of platinum. Most
> people won't. Yet, if you offer an item that no longer drops in
> exchange for another item that no longer drops, you might get more
> interest in your proposed transaction.
That doesn't indicate that the currency is broken though. As you say,
for any reasonable amount of platinum. Try buying things that aren't
made anymore such as Rembrandt's paintings for any reasonable amount
of dollars. Can't happen. And in my opinion, people in games don't
even come close to as relatively wealthy as people in real life do,
because MUDs don't tend to support systems that let you profit widely
enough from other people's work (for instance, there's no way to start
an IBM, harnessing the work of 100,000+ people for the shareholder's
profit).
It actually sounds to me like the fundamental problem with Everquest's
currency is just that it's a physical currency rather than a virtual
currency like modern currencies. I can buy a Rembrandt from Christies
by wiring them money, and incurring only a very very small transfer
cost. If I had to physically haul 10 million 1 dollar bills, that'd be
a significantly more difficult task.
The other problem I can see is that since there isn't really a way to
earn interest, or to invest, then _any_ currency inflation is going to
kill much of the value of the currency. Some inflation is acceptable
to people in the physical world because it's a natural effect of
economic growth, and because you're able to make money with your money
at at least an equal rate to the rate of inflation.
--matt - Broken currencies Jim S
- Broken currencies Koster, Raph
- Broken currencies Lars Duening
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Lars Duening
- Broken currencies Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Timothy Dang
- Broken currencies Phillip Lenhardt
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Phillip Lenhardt
- Broken currencies John Buehler
- Broken currencies Derek Licciardi
- Broken currencies Ben Sizer
- Broken currencies Adam Martin
- Broken currencies Ben Sizer
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Timothy Dang
- Broken currencies Michael Dekker
- Broken currencies Miroslav Silovic
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- Broken currencies Timothy Dang
- [DGN] Balancing Melee vs Ranged Combat in Games Which Model Space Ananda Dawnsinger
- Broken currencies Matt Mihaly
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Baron, Jonathan
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Sellers, Michael
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Baron, Jonathan
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Dave Rickey
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) F. Randall Farmer
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Lee Sheldon
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) shren
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) Matt Mihaly
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) John Buehler
- The Monad (was: Broken Economies) Matt Mihaly
- A User's Guide to TCP Windows J C Lawrence
- Balance J C Lawrence
- Economic & Derek Licciardi
- Economic & Matt Mihaly
- Economic & Timothy Dang
- Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken economies) Matt Mihaly
- Money supply in game economies (formerly Brokeneconomies) geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken eco nomies) Koster, Raph
- Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken economies) Timothy Dang
- [DGN] Balancing Melee/Ranged Combat Kwon Ekstrom
- Room Searching - how about doors? Gavin Doughtie
- Tracking Hulbert, Leland
- Online Games get an overview Koster, Raph
- [DGN] Money supply in game economies (formerly Brok en economies) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [DSG] Concrete idea behind currency (was: The Monad and Broken Economies) Paul Schwanz
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Matt Mihaly
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Baron, Jonathan
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Matt Mihaly
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Baron, Jonathan
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Sellers, Michael
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Matt Mihaly
- Majestic (was The Sims Online) Matt Mihaly
- Identity and Economies [was Money supply in game economies (formerly Broken eco nomies) ] Joe Andrieu
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economies) Dave Rickey
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economie s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economies) Dave Rickey
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economie s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The Sims Online (was MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs) Baron, Jonathan
- Distributed Muds Jim Craig
- [DSG] Money supply in game economies (was: Broken Economies) Paul Schwanz
- TECH DGN: (was Broken currencies) Nathan F.Yospe
- [DESIGN] Economic & Marian Griffith
- [DESIGN] Economic & Derek Licciardi
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- [DESIGN] Economic & Travis Nixon
- [DESIGN] Economic & Travis Casey
- [DESIGN] Economic & Matt Mihaly
- [DESIGN] Economic & Travis Nixon
- [DESIGN] Economic & Matt Mihaly
- Author Unknown (was: Money supply in game economies) Emil Eifrém
- TECH: Distributed Muds Emil Eifrém
- TECH: Distributed Muds Jim Craig
- TECH: Distributed Muds Frank Crowell
- TECH: Distributed Muds Colin Coghill
- TECH: Distributed Muds Vincent Archer
- TECH: Distributed Muds Derek Snider
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- TECH: Distributed Muds J C Lawrence
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- TECH: Distributed Muds J C Lawrence
- TECH: Distributed Muds Bruce
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- TECH: Distributed Muds Derek Snider
- TECH: Distributed Muds Brian Hook
- TECH: Distributed Muds Derek Snider
- TECH: Distributed Muds Brian Hook
- TECH: Distributed Muds Adam Martin
- Shattered World's economy John W Pierce
- Shattered World's economy Erik Jarvi
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) J C Lawrence
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Frank Crowell
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Lars Duening
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Vincent Archer
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Dave Rickey
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Vincent Archer
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) shren
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) John Buehler
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Ian Macintosh
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) J C Lawrence
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Travis Casey
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Vincent Archer
- [BIZ] Advertising sprawl (yahoo) Matt Mihaly
- RG Interview Cassandra
- NEWS DGN Wired News article about EQ Zak Jarvis
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Vincent Archer
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) shren
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Freeman, Jeff
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Derek Licciardi
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Vincent Archer
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Freeman, Jeff
- [DESIGN] Economy goals (was: Broken currencies) Adam Martin
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Bob McFakename
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Lynx
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Matt Mihaly
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Bob McFakename
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Matt Mihaly
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Phillip Lenhardt
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Matt Mihaly
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Travis Casey
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Mordengaard
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Michael Tresca
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Trump
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Dave Rickey
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich Effect' Michael Tresca
- Movie grosses Matt Mihaly
- Movie grosses Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Movie grosses Koster, Raph
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- Movie grosses Matt Mihaly
- StarPeace (was Money supply in game economies) Michael Dekker
- TECH: Distributed Muds Bobby Martin
- TECH: Distributed Muds Adam Martin
- TECH: Distributed Muds Bruce
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- TECH: Distributed Muds Brian Hook
- TECH: Distributed Muds Nick Walker
- TECH: Distributed Muds J C Lawrence
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- TECH: Distributed Muds shren
- TECH: Distributed Muds J C Lawrence
- TECH: Distributed Muds Brian Hook
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- TECH: Distributed Muds Chris Gray
- TECH: Distributed Muds Derek Snider
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- TECH: Distributed Muds Matthew D. Fuller
- TECH: Distributed Muds Derek Snider
- TECH: Distributed Muds Vincent Archer
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- TECH: Distributed Muds Christopher Kohnert
- TECH: Distributed Muds Derek Snider
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- TECH: Distributed Muds Caliban Tiresias Darklock
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- TECH: Distributed Muds Matthew D. Fuller
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- TECH: Distributed Muds Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH: Distributed Muds J C Lawrence
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- TECH: Distributed Muds Christopher Kohnert
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- TECH: Distributed Muds Bruce
- TECH: Distributed Muds Vincent Archer
- TECH: Distributed Muds Brad Roberts
- TECH: Distributed Muds Vincent Archer
- [DESIGN] Economic & Currency Solutions Phillip Lenhardt
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich' Effect Bob McFakename
- Curtailing the 'Super-Rich' Effect Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH: Flash Crowds and overflow control Gavin Doughtie
- TECH: Flash Crowds and overflow control Marc Bowden
- TECH: Flash Crowds and overflow control Vincent Archer
- TECH: Flash Crowds and overflow control Koster, Raph
- TECH: Flash Crowds and overflow control J C Lawrence
- TECH: Flash Crowds and overflow control Marc Bowden
- TECH: Flash Crowds and overflow control Justin Rogers
- BUSINESS: I need Online Gaming Revenue Projections. F. Randall Farmer
- [DESIGN] Economic & Currency Solutions Vincent Archer
- [DESIGN] Economic & Currency Solutions Timothy Dang
- [DESIGN] Economic & Currency Solutions Taylor Daynes
- [DESIGN] Economic & Currency Solutions Vincent Archer
- ADMIN: Moving... J C Lawrence
- UO and eBay figures Koster, Raph
- MUD for sale Chris Gray
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- ADMIN: The move and current status J C Lawrence
- Virtual Suicide (Was: Money supply in game economies) Martin Burke
- TECH: Java ARMI Bobby Martin
- TECH: AmigaMud DB questions Bruce
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- TECH: AmigaMud DB questions Bruce
- TECH: AmigaMud DB questions Chris Gray
- TECH: AmigaMud DB questions Jon Lambert
- Kuro5hin: What can games teach us about human-computer interaction? J C Lawrence
- Review of Galactic Emperor: Succession in LumTheMad's Forums Christopher Allen
- [BIZ] New EQ Expansion Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Twisted Python J C Lawrence
- [TECH] Distributed MUD Kwon Ekstrom
- [TECH] Distributed MUD Jeremy Noetzelman
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- EQ: what makes a zone interesting? Elia Morling
- Imaginary Realities - April 2001 David Bennett
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent bruce@puremagic.com
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent Jessica Mulligan
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent Bruce
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent Frank Crowell
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent Kwon Ekstrom
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent John Robert Arras
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent Jon Lambert
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent John Buehler
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent Frank Crowell
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent Travis Nixon
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent Marian Griffith
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent John Buehler
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent Dave Rickey
- [BIZ][TECH] worlds.com gets patent Derek Licciardi
- called shots Josh Rollyson
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- called shots Mordengaard
- called shots Ling Lo
- called shots shren
- called shots John Buehler
- called shots Kwon Ekstrom
- called shots Travis Casey
- called shots Travis Casey
- TECH: Distributed Muds J C Lawrence
- TECH: Distributed Muds Brad Roberts
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- TECH: Distributed Muds Dominic J. Eidson
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Bruce
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Derek Snider
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Bruce
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Derek Snider
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Alex
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) shren
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Derek Snider
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) John Buehler
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) John Buehler
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Kwon Ekstrom
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Derek Licciardi
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
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- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) John Buehler
- TECH: reliablity (was: Distributed Muds) Kwon Ekstrom
- TECH: prefetching/madvise (was: Distributed Muds) Bruce
- TECH: prefetching/madvise (was: Distributed Muds) Matthew D. Fuller
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- Re:called shots Eric Lamy
- Where are we now? Greg Munt
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- Where are we now? rayzam
- Where are we now? Madman Across the Water
- Where are we now? Bryce Harrington
- Where are we now? Madman Across the Water
- Where are we now? Freeman, Jeff
- TECH: DBM vs BDB speeds (was: AmigaMud DB questions) Bruce
- fault tolerance and character files Steven Fleischaker
- fault tolerance and character files Kwon Ekstrom
- fault tolerance and character files Bruce
- fault tolerance and character files Kwon Ekstrom
- fault tolerance and character files Vincent Archer