March 2001
- MERA '01 registration is now open J C Lawrence
- Link to Virtual Reality Transport Protocol Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Eric Rhea
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Kwon Ekstrom
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Frank Crowell
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Selling training John Buehler
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Selling training Madman Across the Water
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Bunting
- Question about Cygwin. Ryan P.
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Gray
- Question about Cygwin. Nathan F.Yospe
- Question about Cygwin. Gavin Doughtie
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Bunting
- Question about Cygwin. Eli Stevens
- Introduction Elia Morling
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Kevin Littlejohn
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Vincent Archer
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Kevin Littlejohn
- Permadeath and fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- networking abstractions... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Habbo Hotel... Andrew Wilson
- Habbo Hotel... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Habbo Hotel... Andrew Wilson
- Habbo Hotel... Travis Nixon
- Lava and RPGs Brian Hook
- Lava and RPGs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Lava and RPGs Brian Hook
- RIP Electric Communities Tamzen Cannoy
- RIP Electric Communities F. Randall Farmer
- RIP Electric Communities Frank Crowell
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] rayzam
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Koster, Raph
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] rayzam
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Nathan F.Yospe
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Chris Jones
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Eli Stevens
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Jon Lambert
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] John Buehler
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Koster, Raph
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] John Buehler
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
Joe Andrieu wrote:
> Sure, but contract law is not property law. The issue I raised is
> about when/if a judge decides that the property aspects of a given
> case outweigh the contract aspects.
Which courts hate to do. Contracts are easy.
> Speaking from a Law & Economics perspective, contracts are not the
> efficient means for dealing with all the various aspects of property
> law, so its likely that not all the terms required to deal with
> property rights are going to be put into a contract. So, if one
> attempts to create a contract that treats digital property like real
> property, it wouldn't surprise me for a judge to imply terms to the
> contract which the service did not intend.
And my opinion is that a contract that tries to treat digital property
as property won't be enforced by courts on property right principles.
Who sues who in the first place? Digital victim sues service
provider/game company? Then it's a simple matter of whether the
provider followed the enforceable provisions of the contract; the
'property' issues can be entirely circumvented. Digital victim sues
digital perp? How? Assuming you could prove identity and establish a
prima facie case of digital evidence, if both were playing within the
guidelines of the provider contract and rules of conduct, there is no
issue.
> And your suggestion "What you could do" is effectively the same
> thing as the court requiring certain features in a game
> world. Whether its a direct court order or a pre-emptive action
> taken to avoid the courts, both have similar effects in terms of the
> courts driving design issues.
I didn't mean what a court could do. I meant what a game designer who
wanted to have a legal property system *within* a game could do.
> Rather, I argue that trends in digital property (1) could lead to
> such implied terms and (2) will lead eventually to digital property
> being handled as a variation of real property in the real-world
> courts.
And I strenously argue that the digital "property" you describe (I
keep it in quotes because I don't accept the premise) cannot, will
not, and could not be handled like that.
> Some of what is happening today in virtual worlds is moving towards
> de facto property rights, despite TOS agreements attempting the
> contrary. First, because there's a lot to cover about property
> rights that is probably not in a TOS. And I believe that since any
> written contract is only a memorandum of the actual agreement, other
> aspects of the agreement could be asserted based on the actual
> practices of the service.
You don't believe in integration clauses or the statute of frauds?
Interesting.
> So there may be implied terms even though the TOS tries to avoid
> them. Second, a TOS is fair game for an argument of cohesion,
> because every user is pretty much required to sign it and has no
> practical opportunity for negotiation. I'm not sure what the
> current case law is in this area, but if cohesion is a viable
> argument, this case certainly seems to be the place for it.
I believe you mean "adhesion". For the non-legally inclined on the
list, an "adhesion contract" is a "my way or the highway" kind of
contract. In the area of entertainment for the consumer, adhesion
contracts do not raise the spectre of disproportionate bargaining
power present in other areas because games are not 'necessities' and
are not significant consumer expenditures.
> Secondly, I would argue that creating property rights in MUDs is a
> Good Thing(tm) for the same reason that property rights are a good
> thing in the real world.
So I can put up a fence and keep you out?
As the classic parody of Woody Guthrie goes:
"This land is my land, this land ain't your land,
I got a shotgun, and you ain't got one,
If you don't get off, I'll blow your head off.
This land belongs to me and not you."
> You point about duplicability is true, but doesn't address the
> nature of this new scenario. If an virtual object is stolen from
> me, I don't get it back. If I do, as in Achaea, then there is an
> implied commitment on Achaea's part to do so.
Nope. And court's don't go looking for opportunities to imply terms
either.
> And they are effectively implementing a rule of law about ownership
> of items purchased with real-world dollars. So, Achaea is actually
> doing exactly as my argument suggests, they are implementing their
> own system of property rights, precluding the courts from really
> getting involved by minimizing the "error costs", to use an Law &
> Economics term (the costs of filing a suit are clearly greater than
> the value of one hour's lost value).
Is that they're motivation? To preclude court intervention?! Don't
get me wrong, preclude legal intervention is usually a good thing for
a business to do, but there is no good reason to be worried about it
in the first place. To get in that position, they have to guarantee
that they'll return property and such in the first place, and I doubt
the contract says anything like that. And no such term is likely to
be implied. Look in the TOS for a clause that runs along the lines of
"Failure enforce any of these rules on the Service Provider's part is
not a waiver of the Service Provider's right to do so and does not
imply anything." That's the "Get-out-of-ludicrous-implied-terms"
card.
> My argument basically comes down to a basic Law & Economics
> argument:
Which is a pity. I tend to stay out philosophy arguments because
there is rarely any useful resolution. For the non-legally inclined,
"Law & Economics" is a legal philosophy, of which there are several
such as "Natural Law", etc. I forget all the permutations because I
find them less useful in the real world than they were in law school.
> Would you agree that the current laws don't deal with digital
> property and digital "worlds"?
Yes, but only because I don't accept your premise of digital
"property". In the real world, property exists. The land is there.
Intellectual property is created by an author (copyright), inventor
(patent) or merchant (trademark). Where does digital "property" come
from? How is it "property" like other forms of property? These might
be interesting questions if you believe that the digital "property"
you describe can exist. I don't.
> But courts regularly overturn contracts based on factors from
> criminal, tort, property, and constitutional law. US courts, for
> example, regularly overrule liquidated damages in contracts.
Well, I wouldn't say "regularly". In the less than 10% of cases that
actual go to a judge or jury, liquidated damage clauses that are found
unfair, unreasonable, etc., are ignored. That simply means they
aren't immune to judicial scrutiny.
-bloo - Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Timothy Dang
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Playground Games Ling Lo
- data structure design in a new mud Justin Coleman
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud John Buehler
- data structure design in a new mud J. Coleman
- data structure design in a new mud Phillip Lenhardt
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Ben Chambers
- Data Storage and MFC Questions Ben Chambers
- Data Storage and MFC Questions david.l.smith@home.com
- Data Storage and MFC Questions Adam Martin
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems John W Pierce
- Introduction Systems F. Randall Farmer
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Blane Bramble
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Marian Griffith
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Matt Mihaly
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Phillip Lenhardt
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Adam Martin
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Federico Di Gregorio
- Introduction Systems Alistair Milne
- Introduction Systems Alistair Milne
- Updated my site... Koster, Raph
- Knowledge Modeling -- WAS: -- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Zak Jarvis
- Digital Property Law Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Tess Lowe
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Tess Lowe
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Kwon Ekstrom
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Marian Griffith
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Koster, Raph
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Koster, Raph
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) greg underwood
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Brack, J. Allen
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Richard A. Bartle
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Eli Stevens
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Blane Bramble
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Tess Lowe
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Richard A. Bartle
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Frank Crowell
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital PropertyLaw) Frank Crowell
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Adam Martin
- GDC Dinner -- 23 March 2001 (Good food!) J C Lawrence
- Micro-payment Graphical MUSH Dave Rickey
- Micro-payment Graphical MUSH Dave Rickey
- Fw: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Elia Morling
- [Meta] GDC Dinner -- 23 March 2001 (Good food!) J C Lawrence
- Small scale commercial text MUDs John W Pierce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Bruce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Frank Crowell
- Small scale commercial text MUDs John W Pierce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Chris Jones
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Lars Duening
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Emil Eifrém
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Derek Licciardi
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Component Based Items Was:Re:data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- Movies bigger than games? (OT) Richard A. Bartle
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Sellers, Michael
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Brian Hook
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) F. Randall Farmer
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Frank Crowell
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Andrew Wilson
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) John Buehler
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Auli
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Travis Nixon
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Frank Crowell
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Michael Tresca
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Brian Hook
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Marian Griffith
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Travis Casey
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Sellers, Michael
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Travis Casey
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Jessica Mulligan
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Brian Hook
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Jessica Mulligan
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Mud-Dev mail
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Broadcasting subscription model Frank Crowell
- MERA attendance J C Lawrence
- Code base for graphical MUD? Mud Monster
- PK vs no-PK? KevinL
- PK vs no-PK? John Buehler
- PK vs no-PK? Vincent Archer
- PK vs no-PK? Kevin Littlejohn
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Elia Morling
- Learning from the Sims Eric Rhea
- Learning from the Sims Nathan F.Yospe
- Learning from the Sims Eric Rhea
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) J C Lawrence
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Frank Crowell
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Brian Hook
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Freeman, Jeff
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) shren
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Stephen McDonald
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Mark Watson
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Adam Martin
- UO2 is dead Frank Crowell
- UO2 is dead Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UO2 is dead Koster, Raph
- UO2 is dead Sellers, Michael
- UO2 is dead Alornen
- UO2 is dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- UO2 is dead shren
- UO2 is dead Gaffney, Jeremy
- Origin cancelled UWO: ORIGIN (UO2). David Loeser
- Origin cancelled UWO: ORIGIN (UO2). Vincent Archer
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Timothy Dang
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Frank Crowell
- MUSH God to Game Designer. Any good books? Capel, Corey
- MUSH God to Game Designer. Any good books? Jon Morrow
- Wireless MUDS? Michael Tresca
- Wireless MUDS? Matt Mihaly
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Michael Tresca
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience rayzam
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Kevin Littlejohn
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Lee Sheldon
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Zak Jarvis
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Greg Underwood
- RPGPlanet Review Chris Lloyd
- Majestic... ,was UO2 is dead David Loeser
- MUD Dev FAQ part 2 Marian Griffith
- About the FAQ Marian Griffith
- MERA '01, done J C Lawrence
- Distributed Trust system discussion bruce@puremagic.com
- E Language Gavin Doughtie
- Advertising in video games article Brian Hook
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Derek Licciardi
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Valerio Santinelli
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Jeremy Noetzelman
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #299 - 13 msgs Paul Schwanz
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games nbossett@pierb.com
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games Matt Mihaly
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games Matt Mihaly
- Business models for commercial text games Christopher Allen
- measuring roleplay Matt Mihaly
- measuring roleplay Val Trullinger
- Checking In Baron, Jonathan
- Checking In Cassandra
- Checking In Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) John Buehler
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Adam Martin
- Movies bigger than games? Greg Underwood
- Movies bigger than games? Greg Underwood
- Movies bigger than games? Matt Mihaly
- A Tale In The Desert Ling
- A Tale In The Desert Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MERA Pix Scott Martins
- MERA Pix J C Lawrence
- www.innbetweenworlds.com (was: Mud Timeline) Bruce
- SOAP (was: A new MUD-standard) Bruce
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Koster, Raph
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- news sites? Tamzen Cannoy
- news sites? Cassandra
- news sites? Myschyf