March 2001
- MERA '01 registration is now open J C Lawrence
- Link to Virtual Reality Transport Protocol Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Eric Rhea
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Kwon Ekstrom
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Frank Crowell
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Selling training John Buehler
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Selling training Madman Across the Water
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Bunting
- Question about Cygwin. Ryan P.
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Gray
- Question about Cygwin. Nathan F.Yospe
- Question about Cygwin. Gavin Doughtie
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Bunting
- Question about Cygwin. Eli Stevens
- Introduction Elia Morling
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Kevin Littlejohn
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Vincent Archer
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Kevin Littlejohn
- Permadeath and fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- networking abstractions... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Habbo Hotel... Andrew Wilson
- Habbo Hotel... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Habbo Hotel... Andrew Wilson
- Habbo Hotel... Travis Nixon
- Lava and RPGs Brian Hook
- Lava and RPGs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Lava and RPGs Brian Hook
- RIP Electric Communities Tamzen Cannoy
- RIP Electric Communities F. Randall Farmer
- RIP Electric Communities Frank Crowell
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] rayzam
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Koster, Raph
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] rayzam
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Nathan F.Yospe
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Chris Jones
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Eli Stevens
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Jon Lambert
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] John Buehler
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Koster, Raph
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] John Buehler
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Timothy Dang
- Playground Games Ling Lo
- data structure design in a new mud Justin Coleman
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud John Buehler
- data structure design in a new mud J. Coleman
- data structure design in a new mud Phillip Lenhardt
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Ben Chambers
- Data Storage and MFC Questions Ben Chambers
- Data Storage and MFC Questions david.l.smith@home.com
- Data Storage and MFC Questions Adam Martin
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems John W Pierce
- Introduction Systems F. Randall Farmer
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Blane Bramble
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Marian Griffith
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Matt Mihaly
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Phillip Lenhardt
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Adam Martin
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Federico Di Gregorio
- Introduction Systems Alistair Milne
- Introduction Systems Alistair Milne
- Updated my site... Koster, Raph
- Knowledge Modeling -- WAS: -- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Zak Jarvis
- Digital Property Law Joe Andrieu
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mud-dev-admin@kanga.nu
> [mailto:mud-dev-admin@kanga.nu]On Behalf Of
> the_logos@www.achaea.com
> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 12:23 PM
> To: mud-dev@kanga.nu
> Subject: RE: Digital Property Law [was RE: [MUD-Dev]
> Selling training]
>
>
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, Joe Andrieu wrote:
>
> > Matt Mihaley:
[snip]
> And if the implied laws specifically allow for theft, muggings, etc?
> (if the game world has anything resembling a thief class for
> instance, I'd say it's implied that thieving is allowed.)
Well, this is the tricky part, which comes into conflict with a later
comment.
>>> I really hope that the courts aren't going to mandate game
>>> design. They don't require clubs to have civil and criminal
>>> courts to prosecute people who commit crimes inside them. They
>>> seem to be satisfied as long as you're not encouraging it.
>> But people in clubs *are* subject to the laws of the
>> real-world. You can't just join a club and be exempt from the law.
>> However, if you can establish that the "rules of the game" are
>> sufficient definition of the "laws", then you might be ok. That's
>> the case now, where the game declares upfront that "it's just a
>> game". But I doubt that will hold up once digital objects are
>> treated like property and the average Joe won't be able to tell the
>> difference.
> Absolutely they are subject to the laws of the real-world. The club
> itself isn't obligated to act like the police though. If there is a
> murder in the club, the police come to handle it (or mess it
> up). Similarly, I think it's unlikely that a court order mandating
> that a game act like the police in case of a crime will stand up for
> very long. Doing so would be depriving the wronged parties of their
> right to use the police and court systems in case of a crime.
So, which laws apply? Those of the game world or those of the
real-world? In the latter, you've got cops & feds demanding quite
onerous provisions in your service--Can you say "Digital Wiretap Law"?
Or, you try to establish that the game is its own jurisdiction, e.g.,
that the game rules are sufficient to define players' rights. If you
make the latter claim, you may be able to keep the feds mostly out
(except when things spill over into kidnapping, pedophilia, etc.),
provided you have a rich enough, robust enough set of gamerules.
>> So, while I think mandating design might go a bit far, it could
>> happen. Long term, perhaps the courts will mandate a certain
>> robustness in the delineation and treatment of rights, if such
>> rights are implied by certain conditions (like purchasable
>> property). The courts may very well hold that any item purchased
>> is property and therefore, the service provider has an obligation
>> to provide reasonable protection of that right, possibly including
>> the provision of criminal and/or civil process within or outside
>> the game in order to pursue violations. In other words, the game
>> may be forced to provide police and a court system if the
>> real-world court has determined that the services' digital objects
>> are property. It's not that far fetched when you consider that US
>> courts are already aggressively applying US law to events that
>> happen outside the US.
> I think that is a little far-fetched. The sole example I can think
> of where an organization is required (or even allowed) to have its
> own police and court systems is the military, which is a special
> case. If courts treat stealing virtual objects as real crimes, then
> I don't see any way they can avoid having to investigate and
> prosecute the crimes themselves. I don't see this happening. It'd be
> essentially impossible for them. I imagine a cop logging into Achaea
> to investigate a crime. He'd get nowhere at all. Further, given that
> there can be a _total_ lack of hard evidence in a mud, I don't see
> how proof of guilt could be established.
Well, I agree that my scenario is far-fetched. But then again, a
southern state (I forget which one) has put a California couple in
jail for violating the local decency laws of their state by allowing
someone to download adult pictures from their BBS via a long distance
call. To me, that's pretty far-fetched too. But the courts are
struggling with telecommunications induced jurisdictional issues and
it is very unclear how most of them will settle.
The reason to have your own in-game legal system is to avoid liability
by the rules of the "real-world" when the real-world decides that your
digital objects look like real property.
At some point, the courts may decide that "an average consumer" would
have a "reasonable expectation" that such-and-such contract term
applied to their digital property. If there are clearly no digital
property rights, as UO and Verant are pushing hard to establish, then
there are few such implied terms.
But I believe this conversation started with an assertion that digital
property is good. That allowing people to own things makes for more
interesting, more entertaining, and hopefully more profitable games.
The problem is that if the game doesn't have a fully fledged concept
of what those digital property rights are, the courts may very well
impose their own version. Which could really suck.
Or, as John Buehler pointed out, they may not. So this could be just a
bunch of hot air. However, in the next decade we are going to see the
courts and the legislatures map out the space of digital rights, for
privacy, for songs & movies (ala napster), for access, and no doubt
for digital property.
Solving this problem correctly is what's required, IMHO, for success
for something akin to Project Entropia or any significant blurring of
real-world/game-world economies.
>> More to the immediate point, the courts are likely to make mistakes
>> before they figure this out. So, it would suck to have *your* MUD
>> be put out of business by a low-level judge who couldn't see the
>> difference between a virtual mugging and a real one. Ultimately,
>> case law isn't determined until there's a case that completes at
>> trial.
> Right. When I do my next world, I know I will seriously look into
> hosting it somewhere offshore where they aren't likely to bother me
> with how I choose to run my world. I like experimenting with
> business models and the US is a little too self-righteous and nosy
> for my tastes.
Good luck. Bandwidth costs really suck when you do it that way. ;)
-j
--
Joe Andrieu
Realtime Drama
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (626) 395-1011 - Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Tess Lowe
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Tess Lowe
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Kwon Ekstrom
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Marian Griffith
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Koster, Raph
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Koster, Raph
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) greg underwood
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Brack, J. Allen
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Richard A. Bartle
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Eli Stevens
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Blane Bramble
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Tess Lowe
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Richard A. Bartle
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Frank Crowell
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital PropertyLaw) Frank Crowell
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Adam Martin
- GDC Dinner -- 23 March 2001 (Good food!) J C Lawrence
- Micro-payment Graphical MUSH Dave Rickey
- Micro-payment Graphical MUSH Dave Rickey
- Fw: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Elia Morling
- [Meta] GDC Dinner -- 23 March 2001 (Good food!) J C Lawrence
- Small scale commercial text MUDs John W Pierce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Bruce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Frank Crowell
- Small scale commercial text MUDs John W Pierce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Chris Jones
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Lars Duening
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Emil Eifrém
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Derek Licciardi
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Component Based Items Was:Re:data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- Movies bigger than games? (OT) Richard A. Bartle
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Sellers, Michael
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Brian Hook
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) F. Randall Farmer
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Frank Crowell
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Andrew Wilson
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) John Buehler
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Auli
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Travis Nixon
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Frank Crowell
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Michael Tresca
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Brian Hook
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Marian Griffith
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Travis Casey
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Sellers, Michael
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Travis Casey
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Jessica Mulligan
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Brian Hook
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Jessica Mulligan
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Mud-Dev mail
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Broadcasting subscription model Frank Crowell
- MERA attendance J C Lawrence
- Code base for graphical MUD? Mud Monster
- PK vs no-PK? KevinL
- PK vs no-PK? John Buehler
- PK vs no-PK? Vincent Archer
- PK vs no-PK? Kevin Littlejohn
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Elia Morling
- Learning from the Sims Eric Rhea
- Learning from the Sims Nathan F.Yospe
- Learning from the Sims Eric Rhea
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) J C Lawrence
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Frank Crowell
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Brian Hook
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Freeman, Jeff
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) shren
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Stephen McDonald
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Mark Watson
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Adam Martin
- UO2 is dead Frank Crowell
- UO2 is dead Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UO2 is dead Koster, Raph
- UO2 is dead Sellers, Michael
- UO2 is dead Alornen
- UO2 is dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- UO2 is dead shren
- UO2 is dead Gaffney, Jeremy
- Origin cancelled UWO: ORIGIN (UO2). David Loeser
- Origin cancelled UWO: ORIGIN (UO2). Vincent Archer
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Timothy Dang
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Frank Crowell
- MUSH God to Game Designer. Any good books? Capel, Corey
- MUSH God to Game Designer. Any good books? Jon Morrow
- Wireless MUDS? Michael Tresca
- Wireless MUDS? Matt Mihaly
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Michael Tresca
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience rayzam
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Kevin Littlejohn
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Lee Sheldon
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Zak Jarvis
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Greg Underwood
- RPGPlanet Review Chris Lloyd
- Majestic... ,was UO2 is dead David Loeser
- MUD Dev FAQ part 2 Marian Griffith
- About the FAQ Marian Griffith
- MERA '01, done J C Lawrence
- Distributed Trust system discussion bruce@puremagic.com
- E Language Gavin Doughtie
- Advertising in video games article Brian Hook
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Derek Licciardi
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Valerio Santinelli
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Jeremy Noetzelman
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #299 - 13 msgs Paul Schwanz
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games nbossett@pierb.com
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games Matt Mihaly
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games Matt Mihaly
- Business models for commercial text games Christopher Allen
- measuring roleplay Matt Mihaly
- measuring roleplay Val Trullinger
- Checking In Baron, Jonathan
- Checking In Cassandra
- Checking In Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) John Buehler
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Adam Martin
- Movies bigger than games? Greg Underwood
- Movies bigger than games? Greg Underwood
- Movies bigger than games? Matt Mihaly
- A Tale In The Desert Ling
- A Tale In The Desert Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MERA Pix Scott Martins
- MERA Pix J C Lawrence
- www.innbetweenworlds.com (was: Mud Timeline) Bruce
- SOAP (was: A new MUD-standard) Bruce
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Koster, Raph
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- news sites? Tamzen Cannoy
- news sites? Cassandra
- news sites? Myschyf