March 2001
- MERA '01 registration is now open J C Lawrence
- Link to Virtual Reality Transport Protocol Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Eric Rhea
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Kwon Ekstrom
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Frank Crowell
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Selling training John Buehler
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Selling training Madman Across the Water
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Bunting
- Question about Cygwin. Ryan P.
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Gray
- Question about Cygwin. Nathan F.Yospe
- Question about Cygwin. Gavin Doughtie
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Bunting
- Question about Cygwin. Eli Stevens
- Introduction Elia Morling
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Kevin Littlejohn
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Vincent Archer
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Kevin Littlejohn
- Permadeath and fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- networking abstractions... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Habbo Hotel... Andrew Wilson
- Habbo Hotel... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Habbo Hotel... Andrew Wilson
- Habbo Hotel... Travis Nixon
- Lava and RPGs Brian Hook
- Lava and RPGs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Lava and RPGs Brian Hook
- RIP Electric Communities Tamzen Cannoy
- RIP Electric Communities F. Randall Farmer
- RIP Electric Communities Frank Crowell
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, Joe Andrieu wrote:
> Matt Mihaley:
>> But surely MPOG services already do treat digital objects like
>> property? You can 'own' a sword, give it away, sell it,
>> etc. Virtual items, even if Everquest doesn't want to acknowledge
>> it, have a value. There's nothing they can do about it. No one
>> could want them at all if they didn't have a value.
> Sort of. This is at the heart of the UO volunteers' lawsuit's
> valuation of the digital objects based on their real-world price on
> eBay. But by "outlawing" resale and pursuing such outlaws to the
> fullest reasonable extent, they can solidly claim in court that the
> digital objects are NOT property, they are simply a fiction of the
> game. Because they have limited transferability and do not have
> clear title--If I quit playing the game, I don't get to keep my
> objects, etc.--they are not property in the common law sense of the
> term.
Well, excellent, as that's easy enough to do.
>> I hope (but am not confident) that the courts will see that unlike
>> the physical world, in a virtual world, you are there entirely by
>> choice, and that as such you implicitly consent to operating by the
>> rules of that world, whatever they may be. Of course, arguments can
>> be made that just as physical suicide is difficult because of the
>> attachment to life, leaving a virtual world is difficult because of
>> your virtual life there, and thus people are not free to leave
>> whenever they want (lest anyone should accuse me later of being a
>> hypocrite, let me just say that I certainly do not share this
>> view).
> I think this has almost no chance of being an acceptable argument. I
> have a choice to live in Pasadena or East LA or a gated community in
> Beverly Hills. Just as someone has a choice to spend money and
> "live" virtually in UO. Just because someone has a choice to be
> there does not void them of their rights. Could you imagine if my
> choice to be in Disneyland meant that I no longer have certain
> rights because Disneyland decided not to provide the support and
> infrastructure to protect those rights? Egad!
I'd argue that the difference is that you need to have somewhere to
live, and moving from your gated community is a serious
hassle. Leaving a virtual world doesn't require anything but simply
not logging in. Still, I see your point and recognize that courts may
not see it my way.
> There is some precedent here that I think may be likely to point the
> way. In the earlier days of modern courts, they were often called
> to adjucate disputes which took place in close-knit merchant
> communities where there were strict codes of conduct. The merchants
> often went to the courts to enforce the code, so the full weight of
> the state could be applied to the violator. In these cases, the
> judge did not apply the rules of the outside world, but would seek
> out the code of the community and then apply it. It has been said
> that judges don't make common law, they *find* the common law and
> apply it. Which means, that a smart judge would look to the virtual
> service, determine the implied laws of that community and apply them
> to the case.
And if the implied laws specifically allow for theft, muggings, etc?
(if the game world has anything resembling a thief class for instance,
I'd say it's implied that thieving is allowed.)
>> I really hope that the courts aren't going to mandate game
>> design. They don't require clubs to have civil and criminal courts
>> to prosecute people who commit crimes inside them. They seem to be
>> satisfied as long as you're not encouraging it.
> But people in clubs *are* subject to the laws of the real-world. You
> can't just join a club and be exempt from the law. However, if you
> can establish that the "rules of the game" are sufficient definition
> of the "laws", then you might be ok. That's the case now, where the
> game declares upfront that "it's just a game". But I doubt that
> will hold up once digital objects are treated like property and the
> average Joe won't be able to tell the difference.
Absolutely they are subject to the laws of the real-world. The club
itself isn't obligated to act like the police though. If there is a
murder in the club, the police come to handle it (or mess it
up). Similarly, I think it's unlikely that a court order mandating
that a game act like the police in case of a crime will stand up for
very long. Doing so would be depriving the wronged parties of their
right to use the police and court systems in case of a crime.
> So, while I think mandating design might go a bit far, it could
> happen. Long term, perhaps the courts will mandate a certain
> robustness in the delineation and treatment of rights, if such
> rights are implied by certain conditions (like purchasable
> property). The courts may very well hold that any item purchased is
> property and therefore, the service provider has an obligation to
> provide reasonable protection of that right, possibly including the
> provision of criminal and/or civil process within or outside the
> game in order to pursue violations. In other words, the game may be
> forced to provide police and a court system if the real-world court
> has determined that the services' digital objects are property.
> It's not that far fetched when you consider that US courts are
> already aggressively applying US law to events that happen outside
> the US.
I think that is a little far-fetched. The sole example I can think of
where an organization is required (or even allowed) to have its own
police and court systems is the military, which is a special case. If
courts treat stealing virtual objects as real crimes, then I don't see
any way they can avoid having to investigate and prosecute the crimes
themselves. I don't see this happening. It'd be essentially impossible
for them. I imagine a cop logging into Achaea to investigate a
crime. He'd get nowhere at all. Further, given that there can be a
_total_ lack of hard evidence in a mud, I don't see how proof of guilt
could be established.
> More to the immediate point, the courts are likely to make mistakes
> before they figure this out. So, it would suck to have *your* MUD be
> put out of business by a low-level judge who couldn't see the
> difference between a virtual mugging and a real one. Ultimately,
> case law isn't determined until there's a case that completes at
> trial.
Right. When I do my next world, I know I will seriously look into
hosting it somewhere offshore where they aren't likely to bother me
with how I choose to run my world. I like experimenting with business
models and the US is a little too self-righteous and nosy for my
tastes.
--matt - Digital Property Law [was Selling training] rayzam
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Koster, Raph
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] rayzam
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Nathan F.Yospe
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Chris Jones
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Eli Stevens
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Jon Lambert
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] John Buehler
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Koster, Raph
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] John Buehler
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Timothy Dang
- Playground Games Ling Lo
- data structure design in a new mud Justin Coleman
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud John Buehler
- data structure design in a new mud J. Coleman
- data structure design in a new mud Phillip Lenhardt
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Ben Chambers
- Data Storage and MFC Questions Ben Chambers
- Data Storage and MFC Questions david.l.smith@home.com
- Data Storage and MFC Questions Adam Martin
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems John W Pierce
- Introduction Systems F. Randall Farmer
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Blane Bramble
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Marian Griffith
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Matt Mihaly
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Phillip Lenhardt
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Adam Martin
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Federico Di Gregorio
- Introduction Systems Alistair Milne
- Introduction Systems Alistair Milne
- Updated my site... Koster, Raph
- Knowledge Modeling -- WAS: -- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Zak Jarvis
- Digital Property Law Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Tess Lowe
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Tess Lowe
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Kwon Ekstrom
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Marian Griffith
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Koster, Raph
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Koster, Raph
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) greg underwood
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Brack, J. Allen
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Richard A. Bartle
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Eli Stevens
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Blane Bramble
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Tess Lowe
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Richard A. Bartle
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Frank Crowell
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital PropertyLaw) Frank Crowell
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Adam Martin
- GDC Dinner -- 23 March 2001 (Good food!) J C Lawrence
- Micro-payment Graphical MUSH Dave Rickey
- Micro-payment Graphical MUSH Dave Rickey
- Fw: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Elia Morling
- [Meta] GDC Dinner -- 23 March 2001 (Good food!) J C Lawrence
- Small scale commercial text MUDs John W Pierce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Bruce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Frank Crowell
- Small scale commercial text MUDs John W Pierce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Chris Jones
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Lars Duening
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Emil Eifrém
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Derek Licciardi
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Component Based Items Was:Re:data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- Movies bigger than games? (OT) Richard A. Bartle
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Sellers, Michael
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Brian Hook
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) F. Randall Farmer
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Frank Crowell
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Andrew Wilson
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) John Buehler
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Auli
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Travis Nixon
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Frank Crowell
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Michael Tresca
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Brian Hook
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Marian Griffith
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Travis Casey
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Sellers, Michael
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Travis Casey
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Jessica Mulligan
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Brian Hook
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Jessica Mulligan
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Mud-Dev mail
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Broadcasting subscription model Frank Crowell
- MERA attendance J C Lawrence
- Code base for graphical MUD? Mud Monster
- PK vs no-PK? KevinL
- PK vs no-PK? John Buehler
- PK vs no-PK? Vincent Archer
- PK vs no-PK? Kevin Littlejohn
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Elia Morling
- Learning from the Sims Eric Rhea
- Learning from the Sims Nathan F.Yospe
- Learning from the Sims Eric Rhea
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) J C Lawrence
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Frank Crowell
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Brian Hook
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Freeman, Jeff
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) shren
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Stephen McDonald
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Mark Watson
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Adam Martin
- UO2 is dead Frank Crowell
- UO2 is dead Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UO2 is dead Koster, Raph
- UO2 is dead Sellers, Michael
- UO2 is dead Alornen
- UO2 is dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- UO2 is dead shren
- UO2 is dead Gaffney, Jeremy
- Origin cancelled UWO: ORIGIN (UO2). David Loeser
- Origin cancelled UWO: ORIGIN (UO2). Vincent Archer
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Timothy Dang
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Frank Crowell
- MUSH God to Game Designer. Any good books? Capel, Corey
- MUSH God to Game Designer. Any good books? Jon Morrow
- Wireless MUDS? Michael Tresca
- Wireless MUDS? Matt Mihaly
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Michael Tresca
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience rayzam
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Kevin Littlejohn
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Lee Sheldon
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Zak Jarvis
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Greg Underwood
- RPGPlanet Review Chris Lloyd
- Majestic... ,was UO2 is dead David Loeser
- MUD Dev FAQ part 2 Marian Griffith
- About the FAQ Marian Griffith
- MERA '01, done J C Lawrence
- Distributed Trust system discussion bruce@puremagic.com
- E Language Gavin Doughtie
- Advertising in video games article Brian Hook
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Derek Licciardi
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Valerio Santinelli
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Jeremy Noetzelman
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #299 - 13 msgs Paul Schwanz
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games nbossett@pierb.com
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games Matt Mihaly
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games Matt Mihaly
- Business models for commercial text games Christopher Allen
- measuring roleplay Matt Mihaly
- measuring roleplay Val Trullinger
- Checking In Baron, Jonathan
- Checking In Cassandra
- Checking In Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) John Buehler
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Adam Martin
- Movies bigger than games? Greg Underwood
- Movies bigger than games? Greg Underwood
- Movies bigger than games? Matt Mihaly
- A Tale In The Desert Ling
- A Tale In The Desert Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MERA Pix Scott Martins
- MERA Pix J C Lawrence
- www.innbetweenworlds.com (was: Mud Timeline) Bruce
- SOAP (was: A new MUD-standard) Bruce
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Koster, Raph
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- news sites? Tamzen Cannoy
- news sites? Cassandra
- news sites? Myschyf