March 2001
- MERA '01 registration is now open J C Lawrence
- Link to Virtual Reality Transport Protocol Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Eric Rhea
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Frank Crowell
- Cyberspace in the 21at century-- (long) Kwon Ekstrom
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Frank Crowell
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Selling training the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Selling training Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Selling training John Buehler
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Selling training Madman Across the Water
- Selling training Matt Mihaly
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Bunting
- Question about Cygwin. Ryan P.
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Gray
- Question about Cygwin. Nathan F.Yospe
- Question about Cygwin. Gavin Doughtie
- Question about Cygwin. Chris Bunting
- Question about Cygwin. Eli Stevens
- Introduction Elia Morling
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Kevin Littlejohn
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Vincent Archer
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Richard A. Bartle
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Kevin Littlejohn
- Permadeath and fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- networking abstractions... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Habbo Hotel... Andrew Wilson
- Habbo Hotel... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Habbo Hotel... Andrew Wilson
- Habbo Hotel... Travis Nixon
- Lava and RPGs Brian Hook
- Lava and RPGs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Lava and RPGs Brian Hook
- RIP Electric Communities Tamzen Cannoy
- RIP Electric Communities F. Randall Farmer
- RIP Electric Communities Frank Crowell
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Joe Andrieu wrote:
> Matt Mihaley:
>> Yes, absolutely. The massive distinction seems unwarranted to
>> me. There are differences obviously, but I don't view them as
>> fundamental.
> This is spot on in the long view--VR will be just another playground
> to experience. There's no disagreement there.
> But there is fundamental difference in that we have not yet
> established defendable legal jurisdiction (and hence rights, torts,
> crimes, and process) of cyberspace. In fact, I suggest this is
> actually a common thread to many of the criticisms of current MPOGs.
> (If a good "legal system" could be put in place, many problems,
> IMNSHO would pretty much go away.)
This is an issue I've spent a lot of time thinking about as it's
obviously very relevant to Achaea.
> To be more specific, if, in real-life someone attacks you and takes
> your stuff, that's a violent crime, stiffly punished. If it happens
> in a game, it's "just part of the game." No big deal.
Right.
> What if I paid for that stuff with real money? Probably not a big
> deal if I got it from another player on the black-market--there's
> very little grounds for liability if the transaction is
> "unauthorized". Just as I can't go to the cops when the loss in the
> mugging was contraband.
> But what if that "stuff" is sanctioned by the game, possibly bought
> at a shop owned by the game company, and for all extents and
> purposes treated as if it were property? (Clear title,
> transferability, the right to exclusive use, etc.)
This is Achaea, except that we're very careful not to let items you
bought with real money get stolen. It cannot, in fact, be done
permanently, as all bought items reset into the buyer's inventory
about once an hour. This is both to prevent thefts, and to ensure that
each person who wants an artifact (that's what we call bought items)
has to buy one himself. No handing it off to your buddy for the night
shift while you go to sleep. So in that sense, we do not treat them as
real property, as they are only temporarily transferable.
> Further, what if the "mugging" took place in a manner that was not
> intended by the designers, e.g., the thief took advantage of a bug
> in the software to trap the victim and commit the crime.
Tough one, yep.
> This is clearly theft. But it really is no different from the PKer
> on EQ who cracks the system and takes my stuff that I paid another
> player for, that player having "developed" the objects by playing
> the game until he got them. And one could argue it doesn't matter
> if the player or the hacker "cracked" the security. Theft of
> copyright, trademark, or intellectual property does not require the
> information to be well-guarded (only trade secrets require that).
Perhaps an EULA that specifies that you specifically consent to
anything happening in the game world. What about something you have to
agree to each and every time you buy something from the developer? An
agreement stating that you understand that this is a rough-and-tumble
world and that you may lose what you bought due to in-game mechanics
and that buy buying the item, you explicitly agree to these terms? Not
being a lawyer, I have no idea whether such an agreement would stand
up in court.
> This difference gets hairy when the MPOG service starts to treat
> digital objects like property. Sooner or later the courts are going
> to decide that it *is* property. At which point the service soon
> becomes liable, just as Disneyland could easily find itself liable
> in a lawsuit if some installation or ride systematically enabled
> theft or other crimes.
But surely MPOG services already do treat digital objects like
property? You can 'own' a sword, give it away, sell it, etc. Virtual
items, even if Everquest doesn't want to acknowledge it, have a
value. There's nothing they can do about it. No one could want them at
all if they didn't have a value.
I hope (but am not confident) that the courts will see that unlike the
physical world, in a virtual world, you are there entirely by choice,
and that as such you implicitly consent to operating by the rules of
that world, whatever they may be. Of course, arguments can be made
that just as physical suicide is difficult because of the attachment
to life, leaving a virtual world is difficult because of your virtual
life there, and thus people are not free to leave whenever they want
(lest anyone should accuse me later of being a hypocrite, let me just
say that I certainly do not share this view).
I guess what I hope the courts do, and what I suspect they will do
eventually, is to recognize that a virtual world, particularly a
virtual gameworld, is a place in which law enforcement is essentially
impossible. Consider that if a crime is actually committed in your
virtual world, by one person 'stealing' (I prefer to think of it as
liberating. Property is theft.) something from another, it's highly
unlikely to be up to the game administrators to right the wrong. What
the courts might do, like with Napster, is start declaring that the
medium has a responsibility to prevent the crimes of the user, or at
least make it as difficult as possible.
I'm going to be optimistic and predict that eventually, when the dust
has settled, courts will not regulate the gameplay mechanics of
virtual worlds. I think (and hope) they will come to the conclusion
that mandating game design isn't going to work for anyone.
> The best long term solution is to figure out the right way to treat
> digital objects as property--with clear delineation as to the
> nature, scope, rights, and responsibilities of the property owner,
> as well as a civil and/or criminal procedure for backing up those
> rights and responsibilities--and to implement such a legal system
> within the game robustly enough so that a real-world court would
> find the service sufficient in its duty to protect the property of
> those using its service.
I really hope that the courts aren't going to mandate game
design. They don't require clubs to have civil and criminal courts to
prosecute people who commit crimes inside them. They seem to be
satisfied as long as you're not encouraging it.
--matt - Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] rayzam
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Koster, Raph
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] rayzam
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Nathan F.Yospe
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Chris Jones
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Eli Stevens
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Jon Lambert
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] John Buehler
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Koster, Raph
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] geoffrey@yorku.ca
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] John Buehler
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Timothy Dang
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Playground Games Ling Lo
- data structure design in a new mud Justin Coleman
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- data structure design in a new mud John Buehler
- data structure design in a new mud J. Coleman
- data structure design in a new mud Phillip Lenhardt
- data structure design in a new mud pauli.saksa
- data structure design in a new mud Ben Chambers
- Data Storage and MFC Questions Ben Chambers
- Data Storage and MFC Questions david.l.smith@home.com
- Data Storage and MFC Questions Adam Martin
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems John W Pierce
- Introduction Systems F. Randall Farmer
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Blane Bramble
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Marian Griffith
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems Matt Mihaly
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Ben Chambers
- Introduction Systems John Buehler
- Introduction Systems Phillip Lenhardt
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Adam Martin
- Introduction Systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Introduction Systems Travis Casey
- Introduction Systems Federico Di Gregorio
- Introduction Systems Alistair Milne
- Introduction Systems Alistair Milne
- Updated my site... Koster, Raph
- Knowledge Modeling -- WAS: -- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Zak Jarvis
- Digital Property Law Joe Andrieu
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Tess Lowe
- Digital Property Law [was Selling training] Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Tess Lowe
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Kwon Ekstrom
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Marian Griffith
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Koster, Raph
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Koster, Raph
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) greg underwood
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Brack, J. Allen
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Richard A. Bartle
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Eli Stevens
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Blane Bramble
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Tess Lowe
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Richard A. Bartle
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Frank Crowell
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital PropertyLaw) Frank Crowell
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Adam Martin
- GDC Dinner -- 23 March 2001 (Good food!) J C Lawrence
- Micro-payment Graphical MUSH Dave Rickey
- Micro-payment Graphical MUSH Dave Rickey
- Fw: MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #271 - 30 msgs Elia Morling
- [Meta] GDC Dinner -- 23 March 2001 (Good food!) J C Lawrence
- Small scale commercial text MUDs John W Pierce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Bruce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Frank Crowell
- Small scale commercial text MUDs John W Pierce
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Chris Jones
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Lars Duening
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Emil Eifrém
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Derek Licciardi
- Small scale commercial text MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Component Based Items Was:Re:data structure design in a new mud Kwon Ekstrom
- Movies bigger than games? (OT) Richard A. Bartle
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Sellers, Michael
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Brian Hook
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) F. Randall Farmer
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Frank Crowell
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Andrew Wilson
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) John Buehler
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Auli
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Travis Nixon
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Frank Crowell
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Michael Tresca
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Brian Hook
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Marian Griffith
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Travis Casey
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Sellers, Michael
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Travis Casey
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Jessica Mulligan
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Brian Hook
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Koster, Raph
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Jessica Mulligan
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Mud-Dev mail
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Klimon, Ian
- A Brief History of Commercial MUDs Matt Mihaly
- Broadcasting subscription model Frank Crowell
- MERA attendance J C Lawrence
- Code base for graphical MUD? Mud Monster
- PK vs no-PK? KevinL
- PK vs no-PK? John Buehler
- PK vs no-PK? Vincent Archer
- PK vs no-PK? Kevin Littlejohn
- Adverts in games (was Habbo Hotel...) Elia Morling
- Learning from the Sims Eric Rhea
- Learning from the Sims Nathan F.Yospe
- Learning from the Sims Eric Rhea
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) J C Lawrence
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Frank Crowell
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Brian Hook
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Freeman, Jeff
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) shren
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Stephen McDonald
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Mark Watson
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Adam Martin
- UO2 is dead Frank Crowell
- UO2 is dead Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UO2 is dead Koster, Raph
- UO2 is dead Sellers, Michael
- UO2 is dead Alornen
- UO2 is dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- UO2 is dead shren
- UO2 is dead Gaffney, Jeremy
- Origin cancelled UWO: ORIGIN (UO2). David Loeser
- Origin cancelled UWO: ORIGIN (UO2). Vincent Archer
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Timothy Dang
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Travis Casey
- licenses for RPGs (fwd) Frank Crowell
- MUSH God to Game Designer. Any good books? Capel, Corey
- MUSH God to Game Designer. Any good books? Jon Morrow
- Wireless MUDS? Michael Tresca
- Wireless MUDS? Matt Mihaly
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Michael Tresca
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience rayzam
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Kevin Littlejohn
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Lee Sheldon
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Zak Jarvis
- Movies About MUDs & the Virtual Experience Greg Underwood
- RPGPlanet Review Chris Lloyd
- Majestic... ,was UO2 is dead David Loeser
- MUD Dev FAQ part 2 Marian Griffith
- About the FAQ Marian Griffith
- MERA '01, done J C Lawrence
- Distributed Trust system discussion bruce@puremagic.com
- E Language Gavin Doughtie
- Advertising in video games article Brian Hook
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Derek Licciardi
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Valerio Santinelli
- Concerning Advanced Server designs for MMORPGs Jeremy Noetzelman
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #299 - 13 msgs Paul Schwanz
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games nbossett@pierb.com
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games Matt Mihaly
- Business models for commercial text games Emil Eifrém
- Business models for commercial text games Matt Mihaly
- Business models for commercial text games Christopher Allen
- measuring roleplay Matt Mihaly
- measuring roleplay Val Trullinger
- Checking In Baron, Jonathan
- Checking In Cassandra
- Checking In Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Matt Mihaly
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) John Buehler
- Movies bigger than games? (was Digital Property Law) Adam Martin
- Movies bigger than games? Greg Underwood
- Movies bigger than games? Greg Underwood
- Movies bigger than games? Matt Mihaly
- A Tale In The Desert Ling
- A Tale In The Desert Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MERA Pix Scott Martins
- MERA Pix J C Lawrence
- www.innbetweenworlds.com (was: Mud Timeline) Bruce
- SOAP (was: A new MUD-standard) Bruce
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Koster, Raph
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #301 - 15 msgs Baron, Jonathan
- news sites? Tamzen Cannoy
- news sites? Cassandra
- news sites? Myschyf