December 2001
- Stories, why? -- Because :) Marian Griffith
- [SECURITY] Bonefarming Adam Martin
- If JRRT did MUDs... Adam Martin
- If JRRT did MUDs... Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- If JRRT did MUDs... Marcus Johansson
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation rayzam
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Marian Griffith
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Jeff Cole
- Story Implementation Valerio Santinelli
- From the linux-kernel list Jeff Cole
- Survey: Internet Cuts Into TV Time Michael Tresca
- Interesting DAoC Poll Lee Sheldon
- Interesting DAoC Poll Vincent Archer
- Interesting DAoC Poll Robert Fleck
- Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Interesting DAoC Poll Matt Mihaly
- Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Interesting DAoC Poll Matt Mihaly
- Project announcement: Cool++ ryan daum
- DAoC: Empowering Players to Alter the World (was: New laws) Lee Sheldon
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Nathan F. Yospe
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems rayzam
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Sellers, Mike
- RuneSword Brian Hook
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Elia Morling
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Timothy Dang
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) John Buehler
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) John Buehler
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Marian Griffith
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Sellers, Mike
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Matt Mihaly
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Bobby Martin
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Paul Schwanz
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Peter Harkins
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Paul Schwanz
From: Peter Harkins <ph@malaprop.org>
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 01:06:38PM -0500, Paul Schwanz wrote:
>> I wouldn't dream of contradicting our lead server developer :),
>> but I'd like to point out the fact that our design will allow the
>> potential for something very much like multiple currencies, even
>> though the game doesn't support them directly.
>> We plan to allow individuals or communities/guilds the ability to
>> *sign* a document, rendering its contents immutable. We've only
>> had initial discussions on this mechanic and haven't hashed out
>> implementation (although the possibility of having the
>> signature/insignia linked to a "reputation" was discussed), but I
>> think the implications can be far-reaching. Given the right
>> economic environment (and yes, we realize that this part of the
>> equation is non-trivial), there is nothing to prevent the
>> following use of this ability.
>> The "Wood Trading Corporation of Cosm" (a player-owned "guild")
>> builds a large storage facility in Trebizond and another in
>> Timbuktu. It stocks each facility with a good amount of wood.
>> It then announces that it will issue wood certificates. These
>> are simply pieces of velum or parchment on which the
>> corporation has inscribed, for example, "1,000 wood units
>> payable to the bearer of this certificate," and then signed
>> with the guild name/insignia. The WTCC commits itself to pay
>> out 1,000 wood units to anyone who presents this sort of
>> certificate at one of their "branches."
> If you want people to create currencies backed by resources, those
> resources are going to have to be scarce. If the orc tribe each
> get a sword when they repop, swords will soon be valueless. You
> won't be able to trade any amount of swords for sawbucks (couldn't
> resist pun.) If you want the orcs to have swords and not break the
> player economy, they're going to have to have miners and
> blacksmiths or others to trade with who'll fill these
> roles. Players will get to have realistic loot the first time or
> two, but they'll soon be slaughtering a bunch of naked and unarmed
> orcs and complaining that there's no loot.
Speaking for myself (and not necessarily the Cosm team entire), I'm
not much for repopping orcs anyway. On the other hand, I do indeed
like the idea of orcs having miners, blacksmiths, and trade routes.
I think I probably have a little different perspective on the role
that orcs might play in an MMORPG, though. I don't particularly
care much for the orc-as-loot-farm paradigm. I see the loot coming
from my own miners, blacksmiths, and trade routes, which the orcs
seem to constantly threaten. In this paradigm, naked and unarmed
orcs are a good thing, since they typically mean more loot and not
less.
> It's also going to be hard for you to sustain any kind of currency
> - if a currency backed by lumber becomes popular, players will
> happily buy an axe and deforest your entire game world. You'll
> have to slow them down by throwing monsters in the woods and
> having axes fall apart quickly. Not that this will stop them,
> it'll just make the currency less useful - everyone will break the
> bank by trading in certificates for hard-to-obtain wood, except
> for a few coalitions of players who team up and deforest huge
> swaths of the world at a time, making it harder for local players
> to obtain wood, etc.
I would like to see a system of land ownership that frustrates the
sort of deforesting activity you describe. In it, players/NPCs
could build a logging camp that gives them ownership of the trees in
a certain area around the camp. (Initial cost and maintenance for
such camps need to be such that they prohibit a small group of
players from simply plopping down logging camps willy-nilly. Other
game mechanics might be required as well.) Other players would then
buy logs from the camp or be required to get permission in order to
cut down a tree owned by the camp. The alternative would be to
directly attack and destroy the logging camp, thus removing the area
of ownership. Walls, gates, and hired guards might make this
prospect very difficult, though not impossible. (Of course, players
who plop camps down willy-nilly might have a tough time of defending
all of them.)
In addition, how will it be possible to break the bank if the bank
issues no more certificates than it has wood to back it up? How a
certain company handles the ratio of certificates to actual wood
should certainly affect the perceived value of its certificates for
this very reason.
> While I think the immutable contracts are a great idea, I don't
> think they're going to lead to player-issued currencies as you've
> envisioned. It'll require a large game world with realistic
> resource usage, and that's pretty expensive in terms of resource
> usage (cycles and memory.) The alternative is to fudge, and I can
> certainly see a few places you can do it. If you do, though, I'd
> expect you'll end up with not-infrequent breaks in the economy and
> lots of 'pay no attention to the man behind the curtain' antics
> trying to fix it.
Well, we haven't fleshed everything out yet. It is clear, though,
that if we design it poorly then it will be...er...poor. I think
right now we are exploring a number of different options, one being
the idea of an economy behind the economy. Vaguely, the player
economy would be a piece of a larger economy that (hopefully) is not
so large that it is totally resistent to player input, but large
enough to buffer against some of the more harmful activities that
might otherwise lead to drastic or "unrealistic" changes.
In truth, the road away from loot-n-level is fraught with peril.
Personally, though, I think it is a road well worth the taking.
--Phinehas
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Paul Schwanz
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- RE : Story Implementation Veynom
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Jeff Cole
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Dave Rickey
- RE : Story Implementation Veynom
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- economy and population size Adam Martin
- economy and population size J C Lawrence
- Art vs. Fun Michael Tresca
- Art vs. Fun Koster, Raph
- Art vs. Fun Matt Mihaly
- Art vs. Fun Matt Mihaly
- Art vs. Fun Robert Zubek
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Lars Duening
- First use of "avatar"? Matt Mihaly
- First use of "avatar"? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Casey
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Christopher Kohnert
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Casey
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
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- First use of "avatar"? Madman Across the Water
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- First use of "avatar"? Tamzen Cannoy
- First use of "avatar"? Dr. Cat
- First use of "avatar"? F. Randall Farmer
- First use of "avatar"? Mats Lidstrom
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Nathan F. Yospe
- First use of "avatar"? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- First use of "avatar"? Richard A. Bartle
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- Managing MUD economy opteek
- Managing MUD economy Koster, Raph
- Managing MUD economy Derek Licciardi
- Managing MUD economy Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- Managing MUD economy Sasha Hart
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy Freeman, Jeff
- Managing MUD economy John Buehler
- Managing MUD economy Marian Griffith
- Managing MUD economy Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Managing MUD economy Adam Martin
- Managing MUD economy Sasha Hart
- Managing MUD economy Marc Hernandez
- Managing MUD economy Travis Casey
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy Travis Casey
- Managing MUD economy William Murdick
- Managing MUD economy Timothy Dang
- MUD implementation issues. Marcus Johansson
- MUD implementation issues. J C Lawrence
- MUD implementation issues. Nicholas E. Walker
- MUD implementation issues. Phillip Lenhardt
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- MUD implementation issues. Jonathan Berling
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- MUD implementation issues. Marcus Johansson
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- Economy Vincent Archer
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll John Buehler
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Derek Licciardi
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Brian Hook
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Derek Licciardi
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
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- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
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- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
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- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
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- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
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- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
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- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs David H. Loeser Jr.
- MMORPGs & MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MMORPGs & MUDs Freeman, Jeff
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs rayzam
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs William B. Taylor
- MMORPGs & MUDs Skaei@aol.com
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Madrona Tree
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Christopher Allen
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
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- MMORPGs & MUDs David Bennett
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- MMORPGs & MUDs Freeman, Jeff
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- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
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- MMORPGs & MUDs Joel Palmtag
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
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- MMORPGs & MUDs Michelle Elbert
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- MMORPGs & MUDs Azeraab
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- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- Re[4]: Economy Travis Casey
- Eiffel Brian Hook
- ADMIN: Origin of "Avatar" thread J C Lawrence
- Call for Papers - NetGames2002 Tristan Henderson
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Brian Hook
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
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- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions rayzam
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
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- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
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- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Andrew Hefford
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- LPC-Natural Language Parser z032383@students.niu.edu
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- [TECH] algorithm request Malcolm Tester II
- [TECH] algorithm request William Murdick
- [TECH] algorithm request Lars Duening
- [TECH] algorithm request David Bennett
- [TECH] algorithm request Travis Casey
- [TECH] algorithm request Malcolm Tester II
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- [TECH] algorithm request Eli Stevens
- [TECH] algorithm request Bobby Martin
- [TECH] algorithm request Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
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- non-'realistic' spatial models Cybrarian Rök
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- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Bruce Mitchener
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Ola Fosheim Grøstad
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- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
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- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
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- Sex and MUDs... Travis Casey
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- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #16 3 - 25 msgs) Sellers, Mike
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) mystran@ltv.cx
- Combat system in persistent world Veynom
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- Taligent docs Bruce Mitchener
- Taligent docs Chris Corry
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
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- TECH: Servers in Java Emil Eifrem
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- TECH: Servers in Java Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com