December 2001
- Stories, why? -- Because :) Marian Griffith
- [SECURITY] Bonefarming Adam Martin
- If JRRT did MUDs... Adam Martin
- If JRRT did MUDs... Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- If JRRT did MUDs... Marcus Johansson
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation rayzam
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Marian Griffith
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Jeff Cole
- Story Implementation Valerio Santinelli
- From the linux-kernel list Jeff Cole
- Survey: Internet Cuts Into TV Time Michael Tresca
- Interesting DAoC Poll Lee Sheldon
- Interesting DAoC Poll Vincent Archer
- Interesting DAoC Poll Robert Fleck
- Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Interesting DAoC Poll Matt Mihaly
- Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Interesting DAoC Poll Matt Mihaly
- Project announcement: Cool++ ryan daum
- DAoC: Empowering Players to Alter the World (was: New laws) Lee Sheldon
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Nathan F. Yospe
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems rayzam
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Sellers, Mike
- RuneSword Brian Hook
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Elia Morling
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Timothy Dang
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) John Buehler
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) John Buehler
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Marian Griffith
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Sellers, Mike
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Matt Mihaly
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Bobby Martin
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Paul Schwanz
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Peter Harkins
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- RE : Story Implementation Veynom
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Jeff Cole
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Dave Rickey
- RE : Story Implementation Veynom
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- economy and population size Adam Martin
- economy and population size J C Lawrence
- Art vs. Fun Michael Tresca
- Art vs. Fun Koster, Raph
- Art vs. Fun Matt Mihaly
- Art vs. Fun Matt Mihaly
- Art vs. Fun Robert Zubek
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Lars Duening
- First use of "avatar"? Matt Mihaly
- First use of "avatar"? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Casey
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Christopher Kohnert
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Casey
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Nixon
- First use of "avatar"? Madman Across the Water
- First use of "avatar"? Takis Kalogiratos
- First use of "avatar"? Tamzen Cannoy
- First use of "avatar"? Dr. Cat
- First use of "avatar"? F. Randall Farmer
- First use of "avatar"? Mats Lidstrom
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Nathan F. Yospe
- First use of "avatar"? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- First use of "avatar"? Richard A. Bartle
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy opteek
- Managing MUD economy Koster, Raph
- Managing MUD economy Derek Licciardi
- Managing MUD economy Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- Managing MUD economy Sasha Hart
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy Freeman, Jeff
- Managing MUD economy John Buehler
- Managing MUD economy Marian Griffith
- Managing MUD economy Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Managing MUD economy Adam Martin
- Managing MUD economy Sasha Hart
- Managing MUD economy Marc Hernandez
- Managing MUD economy Travis Casey
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy Travis Casey
- Managing MUD economy William Murdick
- Managing MUD economy Timothy Dang
- MUD implementation issues. Marcus Johansson
- MUD implementation issues. J C Lawrence
- MUD implementation issues. Nicholas E. Walker
- MUD implementation issues. Phillip Lenhardt
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- MUD implementation issues. Jonathan Berling
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- MUD implementation issues. Marcus Johansson
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- Economy Vincent Archer
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll John Buehler
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Derek Licciardi
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Brian Hook
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Derek Licciardi
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Lee Sheldon
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Mike Caruso
- MMORPGs & MUDs Adam Martin
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
From: Michael Tresca <talien@toast.net>
> Jeff Freeman posted on Friday, December 21, 2001 2:15 AM
>> Gamers are screaming and yelling about art versus entertainment?
[snip]
>> Want to point me to a forum I've missed?
> This is by no means an exhaustive list.
I'm pretty sure we're talking about two different things here. In
most of the forum-links you posted, the debate wasn't about art
vs. entertainment. Certainly not "designers keep sacrificing fun
for the sake of art".
> Also, please note, these are critiques of intent vs. playability,
> which I categorize as "art > vs. fun" -- when the players don't
> see or experience what the development team promises:
Some were, and that's a bit differently than I was pegging it
anyway. Most of these seem more along the lines of "This game is
about X, but I don't think X is fun." It's like complaining that a
FPS has too much shooting, and a first-person perspective. If you
don't like that sort of thing, I'm sure it's be very annoying, but
do you blame the designers for "sacrificing fun for the sake of art"
in that case?
Breaking it down:
> This fabulous poll (10/21/2001)
> http://www.voodooextreme.com/pollcomments.taf?pollid
Most of the people in that thread seem to be complaining about a
lack of inovation: Designers not trying anything new or particularly
artistic, but just sticking with "what's fun".
> Thinking Virtually by Shannon Appelcline
> - #33: The Fun Factor
> http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/virtually26nov01.html
Most of the replies to that article were from me.
> Mu's Unbelievably Long and Disjointed Ramblings About RPG Design
> - The Grandfather Clause of Stupidity
> http://mu.ranter.net/theory/general.html#grandfather
Again, Mu's talking here about designers *not* being artistic, and
instead just emulating other designers.
> Foaming at the Mouth by Erich S. Arendall
> - Hanging Up the Dice Bag
> http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/spritefeb01.html
The point of this article is that games lack story.
> - You're Doing What On-Line?
> http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/spritejan99.html
'Speaks to the advantages and disadvantages in online gaming (in
that you get/have to game with strangers).
> - Computer RPGs and How Most Aren't
> http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/spritejan98.html
An essay on where CRPGs fall short of the real thing (due mostly to
having NPCs played by a computer, rather than a person).
> Gamegrene.com's Rants
> - What's Wrong With RPG's? Part 1
> http://www.gamegrene.com/rants/whats_wrong_with_online_rpgs_part_1.shtml
'Says the original NWN was good, but current MMO's suck. Doesn't
say why. But says he'll get to that here:
> - What's Wrong With RPG's? Part 2
> http://www.gamegrene.com/rants/whats_wrong_with_online_rpgs_part_2.shtml
Reveals it is due to a lack of roleplaying, and specifically: "While
the system itself and the world created are nicely done, the lack of
roleplaying and character depth is evident." He's not complaining
about the design, or the designers, there - he's complaining about
the players.
> - Click Me Baby One More Time
> http://www.gamegrene.com/rants/click_me_baby_one_more_time.shtml
"So unless we get really lucky and a developer comes along who
wants to make a great game instead of a money-making game (Yes
Virginia, there is a Santa Clause), or we demand more out of our
MMORPG experience, I believe that the next generation of MMORPGs
will be essentially the same as the ones we have now."
That sounds to me like he wants more Art, less pandering to the
masses (i.e. "mere entertainment").
> Ack! by Jeff Freeman
> - The One True Way to Roleplay
> http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/ackjul99.html
> "I haven't played on a text MUD (or MUSH) since Ultima Online came
> out."
I hadn't at the time that I wrote that.
> Did I mention that a lot of my feedback comes from disgruntled
> players who quit MMORPGs and went back to MUDs?
Are you suggesting that the big graphical MMO's are more Artistic
than MUDs, and that MUDs are "Mere Entertainment", devoid of
artistic goals?
'Cause I just don't see that. It seems just the opposite to me. It
seems to me that Joe Schmoe typically puts up his very own MUD
*because* he wants to express himself, artistically that is, without
quite a lot of regard for whether it's going to appeal to the masses
or not.
> Perhaps the issue is that the MMORPG forums are exactly the wrong
> place to be listening for customer feedback. Those aren't the
> customers I'm talking about -- indeed, the customers I'm talking
> about are disgusted long before they would engage in a forum, a
> newsgroup, or a list. These are the folks who play those "dead"
> games -- tabletop RPGs, MUDs, among others. If they simply bashed
> the medium, I would agree that their opinion is irrelevant. But
> it's not irrelevant, because they paid, and then they stopped
> paying.
I didn't say that their opinion wasn't important. Just that I
didn't see a huge public debate over "art vs. entertainment" prior
to Jessica's article. - MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Madrona Tree
- MMORPGs & MUDs John Buehler
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs David H. Loeser Jr.
- MMORPGs & MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MMORPGs & MUDs Freeman, Jeff
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs rayzam
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs William B. Taylor
- MMORPGs & MUDs Skaei@aol.com
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Madrona Tree
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Christopher Allen
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs David Bennett
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Freeman, Jeff
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Wes Connell
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Joel Palmtag
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michelle Elbert
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sami Kosonen
- MMORPGs & MUDs Azeraab
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- Re[4]: Economy Travis Casey
- Eiffel Brian Hook
- ADMIN: Origin of "Avatar" thread J C Lawrence
- Call for Papers - NetGames2002 Tristan Henderson
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Brian Hook
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions rayzam
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Travis Casey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Andrew Hefford
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Jon Lambert
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions rayzam
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions kyndig@kyndig.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Jon Lambert
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Peter Harkins
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Travis Casey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- LPC-Natural Language Parser z032383@students.niu.edu
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Jon Lambert
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Christian Loth
- [TECH] algorithm request Malcolm Tester II
- [TECH] algorithm request William Murdick
- [TECH] algorithm request Lars Duening
- [TECH] algorithm request David Bennett
- [TECH] algorithm request Travis Casey
- [TECH] algorithm request Malcolm Tester II
- [TECH] algorithm request Adam Martin
- [TECH] algorithm request Eli Stevens
- [TECH] algorithm request Bobby Martin
- [TECH] algorithm request Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- non-'realistic' spatial models Nicholas E. Walker
- non-'realistic' spatial models rayzam
- non-'realistic' spatial models Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- non-'realistic' spatial models Cybrarian Rök
- non-'realistic' spatial models Nathan F. Yospe
- The Problem With "Massive" Michael Tresca
- The Ideal Player Michael Tresca
- The Ideal Player Lars Duening
- The Ideal Player Dave Rickey
- The Ideal Player Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs holding99@mindspring.com
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs Robert Zubek
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs holding99@mindspring.com
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Bruce Mitchener
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Bruce Mitchener
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [OFF TOPIC] Happy Holidays Derek Licciardi
- Are crafts fun? Adam Dray
- Are crafts fun? Michelle
- Are crafts fun? Bobby Martin
- Are crafts fun? Bobby Martin
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Jon A. Lambert
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation rayzam
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation amanda@alfar.com
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation Nathan F. Yospe
- Sex and MUDs... the_sage2000@juno.com
- Sex and MUDs... Jon Lambert
- Sex and MUDs... David Bennett
- Sex and MUDs... Travis Casey
- Sex and MUDs... Malcolm Tester II
- Sex and MUDs... Matt Mihaly
- Sex and MUDs... Adam Dray
- Some vworlds (maddog) related changes Frank Crowell
- Some vworlds (maddog) related changes Frank Crowell
- (no subject) claw@kanga.nu
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #16 3 - 25 msgs) Sellers, Mike
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) mystran@ltv.cx
- Combat system in persistent world Veynom
- Combat system in persistent world J C Lawrence
- Taligent docs Bruce Mitchener
- Taligent docs Chris Corry
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Bobby Martin
- TECH: Servers in Java Emil Eifrem
- TECH: Servers in Java Aaron Mulder
- TECH: Servers in Java justice@softhome.net
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com