December 2001
- Stories, why? -- Because :) Marian Griffith
- [SECURITY] Bonefarming Adam Martin
- If JRRT did MUDs... Adam Martin
- If JRRT did MUDs... Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- If JRRT did MUDs... Marcus Johansson
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation rayzam
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Marian Griffith
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Jeff Cole
- Story Implementation Valerio Santinelli
- From the linux-kernel list Jeff Cole
- Survey: Internet Cuts Into TV Time Michael Tresca
- Interesting DAoC Poll Lee Sheldon
- Interesting DAoC Poll Vincent Archer
- Interesting DAoC Poll Robert Fleck
- Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Interesting DAoC Poll Matt Mihaly
- Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Interesting DAoC Poll Matt Mihaly
- Project announcement: Cool++ ryan daum
- DAoC: Empowering Players to Alter the World (was: New laws) Lee Sheldon
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Nathan F. Yospe
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems rayzam
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Sellers, Mike
- RuneSword Brian Hook
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Elia Morling
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Timothy Dang
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) John Buehler
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) John Buehler
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
From: "Koster, Raph" <rkoster@soe.sony.com>
<snip some stuff about collecting hula hoops and how diablo's
mechanics don't work in muds>
> Now you're at the point where instead, you have to have "real"
> value for the goods gathered. And that means, they have to be
> useful to other players so that there is actual demand. You can't
> make them useful to NPCs unless the NPCs engage in the same
> activities as the players, even if only on a simulated basis. And
> you probably don't want to do that ("let's see, we have 200
> shopkeepers who are adventurers, so we want to keep 50% of all
> spawns empty at all times to reflect their activities...") Very
> quickly the task of making them reasonable equivalents to players
> grows out of hand; there's an impressive amount of variables to
> worry about, and writing a decent AI to juggle them *and preserve
> the fun* isn't trivial.
But here is the point I've tried to make a number of times
throughout the past year or so. You cannot remove 99.99999% of the
participants in an economy, leave only one very specific class of
participant, and then hope it will work. It will not. I can
guarantee it. You may be able to come up with something that will
work, but it will not be the traditional supply-demand type of
economy that everybody seems to want. Well, it might be, but it
certainly won't be fun. Because most of the people in the world
want the exact same things you do, and they want to get rid of the
same things you do. If I have a hula hoop that's useless to me, and
it's useless to you as well, guess what the odds of me being able to
sell it to you are? If its useless to 99% of the rest of the world,
guess what the odds of me being able to sell it at all are? If all
the shopkeepers in the world, all the NPCs in the world (whether
they be present in the world or simulated) want the same things I
do, guess what the odds of me being able to sell it are?
Bingo. Zero.
However, if you bring back in the neglected rest of the population,
the farmers, the streetsweepers, the city foot patrol, the
basketweavers, and all their children (we are talking about hula
hoops after all), bring all those people back into the economy and
who knows? Maybe hula hoops will be popular. Maybe they'll be a
fad, selling for high prices for a while and then dwindling til
nearly nothing. Maybe every kid in the city will own one at some
point. There you have at least 2 possible interesting economic
effects based on one simple little item. Give me a few minutes and
I could come up with some more.
But really, who else can those people be but NPCs?
Of course, then comes the argument used in the simulated ecosystem
threads, because obviously that many NPCs cannot (at this time,
anyway) be placed in the world, so the masses would have to be
simulated. And the argument goes: "Why bother with a simulation
when you can just come up with something much similar that looks the
same on the outside?" And of course, there's really no reason not
to do just that. Fluctuate prices. Make some things "go out of
style". Create fads. Of course, doing it that way creates problems
of its own. For example, you can't just fluctuate randomly, or
you've created a neverending money fountain, unless the fluctuations
are smaller than the transaction cost (which is another term I'm
probably just making up to mean the difference between buying and
selling). Of course, a little bit of that is interesting to players
who want to be traders and merchants. The biggest problem in my
eyes though, is that players never see the reason for things. They
never see (or hear about) all the kids playing with the hula hoops
they found. They may see the price go sky high and then drop, but
they don't know why. Of course, you could do that sort of thing in
your "simpler than simulation" but then you're really approaching
what I'm talking about by simulation anyway. :)
> The easier solution is to remove them as participants as much as
> possible, should your mud have the scale to do so. Remove the
> subsidies and rely on the player-player market to set prices. Be
> sure you have ongoing costs so that items expire and there is an
> ongoing demand. In most mud economies, this is what I've seen
> happen anyway, as the game matures and players stop using the
> shopkeepers and come to prefer to trade amongst themselves for the
> truly valuable items. Am I wrong in my impression that Hula Hoop
> gathering turns into a newbie activity on most muds?
If I understand correctly, the reason people turn to trade is not
because that's the best way to handle things, but because the
economy is hopelessly broken and impossibly deflationary, and that's
the ONLY way to do things. Some people enjoy bartering. The rest
do it because they have no choice. Regardless, for the reasons I
stated above, a purely player-driven economy probably will not work
at all. I say probably because I suppose it is possible to create
varied enough needs in player characters that they don't all want
the same things. Possible, but not probable. Supply and demand
only works if there's supply and demand. If everybody demands the
same thing, there's no supply. If everybody supplies the same
thing, there's no demand.
And just for the record, 10 or so distinct economic classes (is
there a real term for the thing I'm talking about? I'm pretty sure
'economic classes' isn't it) even if their needs are completely
different (which they usually aren't. given the stereotypical D&D
classes, fighters need the same armor as paladins) isn't nearly
enough. Go up an order of magnitude or 3 and you'd be closer,
depending of course on your total population.
Sorry for the hostility, but I feel like I keep saying the same
thing over and over. People say "well, a supply and demand based
economy cannot work", and I say "well, duh, of course it can't work
if you ignore the rest of the world and only take players into
account."
Of course, it's entirely possible that I haven't said that as many
times as it feels like I have, although I know I made at least one
post a while back on this very topic, but I've certainly thought it
that many.
:) - Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Marian Griffith
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Sellers, Mike
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Matt Mihaly
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Bobby Martin
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Paul Schwanz
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Peter Harkins
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- RE : Story Implementation Veynom
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Jeff Cole
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Dave Rickey
- RE : Story Implementation Veynom
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- economy and population size Adam Martin
- economy and population size J C Lawrence
- Art vs. Fun Michael Tresca
- Art vs. Fun Koster, Raph
- Art vs. Fun Matt Mihaly
- Art vs. Fun Matt Mihaly
- Art vs. Fun Robert Zubek
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Lars Duening
- First use of "avatar"? Matt Mihaly
- First use of "avatar"? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Casey
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Christopher Kohnert
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Casey
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Nixon
- First use of "avatar"? Madman Across the Water
- First use of "avatar"? Takis Kalogiratos
- First use of "avatar"? Tamzen Cannoy
- First use of "avatar"? Dr. Cat
- First use of "avatar"? F. Randall Farmer
- First use of "avatar"? Mats Lidstrom
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Nathan F. Yospe
- First use of "avatar"? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- First use of "avatar"? Richard A. Bartle
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy opteek
- Managing MUD economy Koster, Raph
- Managing MUD economy Derek Licciardi
- Managing MUD economy Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- Managing MUD economy Sasha Hart
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy Freeman, Jeff
- Managing MUD economy John Buehler
- Managing MUD economy Marian Griffith
- Managing MUD economy Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Managing MUD economy Adam Martin
- Managing MUD economy Sasha Hart
- Managing MUD economy Marc Hernandez
- Managing MUD economy Travis Casey
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy Travis Casey
- Managing MUD economy William Murdick
- Managing MUD economy Timothy Dang
- MUD implementation issues. Marcus Johansson
- MUD implementation issues. J C Lawrence
- MUD implementation issues. Nicholas E. Walker
- MUD implementation issues. Phillip Lenhardt
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- MUD implementation issues. Jonathan Berling
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- MUD implementation issues. Marcus Johansson
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- Economy Vincent Archer
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll John Buehler
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Derek Licciardi
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Brian Hook
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Derek Licciardi
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Lee Sheldon
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Mike Caruso
- MMORPGs & MUDs Adam Martin
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Madrona Tree
- MMORPGs & MUDs John Buehler
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs David H. Loeser Jr.
- MMORPGs & MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MMORPGs & MUDs Freeman, Jeff
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs rayzam
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs William B. Taylor
- MMORPGs & MUDs Skaei@aol.com
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Madrona Tree
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Christopher Allen
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs David Bennett
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Freeman, Jeff
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Wes Connell
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Joel Palmtag
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michelle Elbert
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sami Kosonen
- MMORPGs & MUDs Azeraab
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- Re[4]: Economy Travis Casey
- Eiffel Brian Hook
- ADMIN: Origin of "Avatar" thread J C Lawrence
- Call for Papers - NetGames2002 Tristan Henderson
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Brian Hook
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions rayzam
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Travis Casey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Andrew Hefford
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Jon Lambert
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions rayzam
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions kyndig@kyndig.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Jon Lambert
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Peter Harkins
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Travis Casey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- LPC-Natural Language Parser z032383@students.niu.edu
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Jon Lambert
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Christian Loth
- [TECH] algorithm request Malcolm Tester II
- [TECH] algorithm request William Murdick
- [TECH] algorithm request Lars Duening
- [TECH] algorithm request David Bennett
- [TECH] algorithm request Travis Casey
- [TECH] algorithm request Malcolm Tester II
- [TECH] algorithm request Adam Martin
- [TECH] algorithm request Eli Stevens
- [TECH] algorithm request Bobby Martin
- [TECH] algorithm request Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- non-'realistic' spatial models Nicholas E. Walker
- non-'realistic' spatial models rayzam
- non-'realistic' spatial models Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- non-'realistic' spatial models Cybrarian Rök
- non-'realistic' spatial models Nathan F. Yospe
- The Problem With "Massive" Michael Tresca
- The Ideal Player Michael Tresca
- The Ideal Player Lars Duening
- The Ideal Player Dave Rickey
- The Ideal Player Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs holding99@mindspring.com
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs Robert Zubek
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs holding99@mindspring.com
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Bruce Mitchener
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Bruce Mitchener
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [OFF TOPIC] Happy Holidays Derek Licciardi
- Are crafts fun? Adam Dray
- Are crafts fun? Michelle
- Are crafts fun? Bobby Martin
- Are crafts fun? Bobby Martin
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Jon A. Lambert
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation rayzam
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation amanda@alfar.com
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation Nathan F. Yospe
- Sex and MUDs... the_sage2000@juno.com
- Sex and MUDs... Jon Lambert
- Sex and MUDs... David Bennett
- Sex and MUDs... Travis Casey
- Sex and MUDs... Malcolm Tester II
- Sex and MUDs... Matt Mihaly
- Sex and MUDs... Adam Dray
- Some vworlds (maddog) related changes Frank Crowell
- Some vworlds (maddog) related changes Frank Crowell
- (no subject) claw@kanga.nu
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #16 3 - 25 msgs) Sellers, Mike
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) mystran@ltv.cx
- Combat system in persistent world Veynom
- Combat system in persistent world J C Lawrence
- Taligent docs Bruce Mitchener
- Taligent docs Chris Corry
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Bobby Martin
- TECH: Servers in Java Emil Eifrem
- TECH: Servers in Java Aaron Mulder
- TECH: Servers in Java justice@softhome.net
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com