December 2001
- Stories, why? -- Because :) Marian Griffith
- [SECURITY] Bonefarming Adam Martin
- If JRRT did MUDs... Adam Martin
- If JRRT did MUDs... Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- If JRRT did MUDs... Marcus Johansson
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation rayzam
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Marian Griffith
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Jeff Cole
- Story Implementation Valerio Santinelli
- From the linux-kernel list Jeff Cole
- Survey: Internet Cuts Into TV Time Michael Tresca
- Interesting DAoC Poll Lee Sheldon
- Interesting DAoC Poll Vincent Archer
- Interesting DAoC Poll Robert Fleck
- Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Interesting DAoC Poll Matt Mihaly
- Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Interesting DAoC Poll Matt Mihaly
- Project announcement: Cool++ ryan daum
- DAoC: Empowering Players to Alter the World (was: New laws) Lee Sheldon
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Nathan F. Yospe
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems rayzam
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Sellers, Mike
- RuneSword Brian Hook
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Elia Morling
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Timothy Dang
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) John Buehler
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) John Buehler
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Marian Griffith
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Sellers, Mike
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Matt Mihaly
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Bobby Martin
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Paul Schwanz
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Peter Harkins
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- RE : Story Implementation Veynom
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Jeff Cole
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Dave Rickey
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Jeff Cole
> From: Dave Rickey
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Cole <jeff.cole@mindspring.com>
> From: "Dave Rickey" <daver@mythicentertainment.com>
> Something about your emails keeps my email client (Outlook Express
> 4.72) from quoting them properly. It's a pain inserting all those
> ">" indentations by hand. >
Hmmm ... dunno ... is this any better?
>>> Unfortunately, it is not, it's because this is not a real world
>>> I'm dealing with.
>> Huh? How is it not the "real world." It is absolutely real.
>> You have people bargaining for things that are of value to them.
> It's not real in the sense that no realistic limitations on raw
> materials or labor exist, barring my simulating them there is an
> infinite supply of both.
It's a design decision. I would argue that in DAoC, it's much more
an issue of the skills system as a whole. At the moment, raising
skills requires overproduction. Combine that with a levelling curve
far steeper than that of the crafters and you've got further issues.
I don't disagree that you might have quite a problem balancing
supply and demand. My contention is that it is a result of design
rather than the "real-ness" of MMO*'s.
>>> Setting up a buyer-seller in the real world has a whole host of
>>> overhead costs, and is complex enough that we have a special
>>> term for it: Business Model.
>> The transaction costs (overhead) of almost every transaction that
>> you make in the real world, Dave, are completely internalized
>> within the transaction itself. How many of those transactions
>> actually involve bargaining? I imagine that the majority of your
>> daily economic interactions are really nothing more than the DAoC
>> analog of purchasing from an NPC vendor. Sure, there might be
>> some social interaction with the clerk/agent, but this
>> interaction does not go to the essence of the transaction.
> The essence of the transaction in an economic sense, but I am not
> creating an economic simulator. I am creating an adjunct to a
> loot-and-level game. The social interaction is far from an
> accidental byproduct of the process, it's the *purpose*.
> Otherwise, why bother?
> My objection to a vendor system is that personal interaction and
> the resulting community-building flies straight out the window.
> The players are back to doing business with NPC's. In an economic
> sense it is a player-to-player transaction, in a gameplay sense
> it's just another NPC merchant, with a less predictable inventory.
But it need not be either/or; they are not mutually exclusive by
definition (though perhaps they are in a given implementation).
>> You have artificially increased the transaction costs associated
>> by making it more difficult (and inconvenient) for buyers/sellers
>> to find each other: it is precisely because these transaction
>> costs are internalized. It is a result of the rather limited
>> (hardly evolutionary) interaction mechanics of DAoC.
> I have increased nothing. I have let the transaction costs find
> their natural equilibrium, given the rules of the game world.
Sure you have. Perhaps the highest cost you force crafters to
internalize is tedium and inconvenience.
I would say that, by far, the largest socialization that arises from
the DAoC tradeskill system is crafters socializing. Crafters have
nothing to do but socialize. And that has absolutely nothing to do
with the final transaction/interaction with the customer.
This is not unlike socializing with you group out EXPing.
>>> In a game, any tools we create to assist creating those channels
>>> pre-empt any "natural" business models that might emerge.
>> How so? Give an example. I would argue just the opposite: that
>> the tools you create to allow the economy (i.e. "business model")
>> to become more natural.
> Most of the truly successful tradesmen have become so by
> cultivating their market, making items for lower-level players at
> cost in order to educate them to the advantages of crafted
> equipment.
Any markup that a craftsman of any significant skill (the next
higher material?) above that which the lower player wants/needs
could reasonably expect from said player is insignificant to the
crafter.
> These players then come back to them later. Vendor systems would
> commodify the equipment and eliminate the social interaction. >
The vast majority of the social interaction (see above) would hardly
be affected.
>> Take Tailoring. You had to inextricably tie it to Armorcrafting
>> just to make it valuable. That is a kluge.
> Yep. One that *works*.
Sure it works ... ok. Too bad tailoring wasn't designed to be
valuable within the scope of the game.
>> Such macroscopic solutions to microscopic, or fundamental,
>> problems run roughshod over the system. Even in the real world,
>> artificially imposed barriers to market serve a function other
>> than making an economy more "natural."
> I have certain advantages that Congress lacks. I'm not limited by
> anything, not even the laws of physics. Congress would be
> hard-pressed to repeal the Law of Gravity. DAoC trades violate
> Conservation of Mass routinely.
Red herring.
> And if I wanted to create a simulation of modern mass-production
> consumerism, all that would be fine.
Hey, no worries, here. It's your adjunct to a loot-and-level game
and you're free to "adjunct-itify" to your heart's content.
My main point was that the nasty Catch-22 was one of your (the royal
"your") own creation.
Yrs Affcty,
Jeff Cole - Economy (was [STORY] Story and populationsize) Dave Rickey
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Jeff Cole
- RE : Story Implementation Veynom
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- economy and population size Adam Martin
- economy and population size J C Lawrence
- Art vs. Fun Michael Tresca
- Art vs. Fun Koster, Raph
- Art vs. Fun Matt Mihaly
- Art vs. Fun Matt Mihaly
- Art vs. Fun Robert Zubek
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Lars Duening
- First use of "avatar"? Matt Mihaly
- First use of "avatar"? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Casey
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Christopher Kohnert
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Casey
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Nixon
- First use of "avatar"? Madman Across the Water
- First use of "avatar"? Takis Kalogiratos
- First use of "avatar"? Tamzen Cannoy
- First use of "avatar"? Dr. Cat
- First use of "avatar"? F. Randall Farmer
- First use of "avatar"? Mats Lidstrom
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Nathan F. Yospe
- First use of "avatar"? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- First use of "avatar"? Richard A. Bartle
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy opteek
- Managing MUD economy Koster, Raph
- Managing MUD economy Derek Licciardi
- Managing MUD economy Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- Managing MUD economy Sasha Hart
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy Freeman, Jeff
- Managing MUD economy John Buehler
- Managing MUD economy Marian Griffith
- Managing MUD economy Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Managing MUD economy Adam Martin
- Managing MUD economy Sasha Hart
- Managing MUD economy Marc Hernandez
- Managing MUD economy Travis Casey
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy Travis Casey
- Managing MUD economy William Murdick
- Managing MUD economy Timothy Dang
- MUD implementation issues. Marcus Johansson
- MUD implementation issues. J C Lawrence
- MUD implementation issues. Nicholas E. Walker
- MUD implementation issues. Phillip Lenhardt
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- MUD implementation issues. Jonathan Berling
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- MUD implementation issues. Marcus Johansson
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- Economy Vincent Archer
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll John Buehler
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Derek Licciardi
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Brian Hook
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Derek Licciardi
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Lee Sheldon
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Mike Caruso
- MMORPGs & MUDs Adam Martin
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Madrona Tree
- MMORPGs & MUDs John Buehler
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs David H. Loeser Jr.
- MMORPGs & MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MMORPGs & MUDs Freeman, Jeff
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs rayzam
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs William B. Taylor
- MMORPGs & MUDs Skaei@aol.com
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Madrona Tree
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Christopher Allen
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs David Bennett
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Freeman, Jeff
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Wes Connell
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Joel Palmtag
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michelle Elbert
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sami Kosonen
- MMORPGs & MUDs Azeraab
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- Re[4]: Economy Travis Casey
- Eiffel Brian Hook
- ADMIN: Origin of "Avatar" thread J C Lawrence
- Call for Papers - NetGames2002 Tristan Henderson
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Brian Hook
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions rayzam
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Travis Casey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Andrew Hefford
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Jon Lambert
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions rayzam
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions kyndig@kyndig.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Jon Lambert
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Peter Harkins
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Travis Casey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- LPC-Natural Language Parser z032383@students.niu.edu
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Jon Lambert
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Christian Loth
- [TECH] algorithm request Malcolm Tester II
- [TECH] algorithm request William Murdick
- [TECH] algorithm request Lars Duening
- [TECH] algorithm request David Bennett
- [TECH] algorithm request Travis Casey
- [TECH] algorithm request Malcolm Tester II
- [TECH] algorithm request Adam Martin
- [TECH] algorithm request Eli Stevens
- [TECH] algorithm request Bobby Martin
- [TECH] algorithm request Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- non-'realistic' spatial models Nicholas E. Walker
- non-'realistic' spatial models rayzam
- non-'realistic' spatial models Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- non-'realistic' spatial models Cybrarian Rök
- non-'realistic' spatial models Nathan F. Yospe
- The Problem With "Massive" Michael Tresca
- The Ideal Player Michael Tresca
- The Ideal Player Lars Duening
- The Ideal Player Dave Rickey
- The Ideal Player Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs holding99@mindspring.com
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs Robert Zubek
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs holding99@mindspring.com
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Bruce Mitchener
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Bruce Mitchener
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [OFF TOPIC] Happy Holidays Derek Licciardi
- Are crafts fun? Adam Dray
- Are crafts fun? Michelle
- Are crafts fun? Bobby Martin
- Are crafts fun? Bobby Martin
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Jon A. Lambert
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation rayzam
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation amanda@alfar.com
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation Nathan F. Yospe
- Sex and MUDs... the_sage2000@juno.com
- Sex and MUDs... Jon Lambert
- Sex and MUDs... David Bennett
- Sex and MUDs... Travis Casey
- Sex and MUDs... Malcolm Tester II
- Sex and MUDs... Matt Mihaly
- Sex and MUDs... Adam Dray
- Some vworlds (maddog) related changes Frank Crowell
- Some vworlds (maddog) related changes Frank Crowell
- (no subject) claw@kanga.nu
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #16 3 - 25 msgs) Sellers, Mike
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) mystran@ltv.cx
- Combat system in persistent world Veynom
- Combat system in persistent world J C Lawrence
- Taligent docs Bruce Mitchener
- Taligent docs Chris Corry
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Bobby Martin
- TECH: Servers in Java Emil Eifrem
- TECH: Servers in Java Aaron Mulder
- TECH: Servers in Java justice@softhome.net
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com