December 2001
- Stories, why? -- Because :) Marian Griffith
- [SECURITY] Bonefarming Adam Martin
- If JRRT did MUDs... Adam Martin
- If JRRT did MUDs... Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- If JRRT did MUDs... Marcus Johansson
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
I'm going to try and refocus one part of the story discussion, since
it has veered from my original intention in replying to Dave's post.
I'm not so much interested in whether anyone thinks stories should
or should not be told in MMOs. The fact remains that each MMO to
date has attempted to do so, and more are on the way. I don't know
if JC will allow this, but I want to quote part of one of my posts
that has NOT been responded to:
Lee Sheldon wrote:
> Again using DAoC as an example. They had/have (?) at least six
> quest builders. The game was in development for a remarkably
> short period time (kudos to Mythic). What was it? 18 months?
> Two years? Yet you can go for levels without a single quest. I
> would estimate there are less than 200 total quests in all the
> realms in DAoC. These appear to all be linear FedEx-style solo
> game-style quests that if just the text were typed out on paper
> would take up no more than one or two pages at best. There are
> some "epic" quests (uncompleted as yet) that will probably run 4
> or even 6 pages before they're done. This works out to at the
> outside 1200 pages of writing for the total development period.
> Two or three big binders worth. Seems like quite a lot, doesn't
> it? Let's see...
> That is 50 pages per month. Divide it by 4 let's say, since I
> believe half of the quest builders were only part time. That's 12
> 1/2 pages per quest builder per month! An average hour soap on TV
> chews through 1000 times (that's not a typo) that much material in
> a month, if you count only pages. It is not a direct one-to-one
> page-by-page correlation of course. But ask Raph Koster how long
> it takes him to write a short story. My weekly breakdowns
> (outlines) for a soap had to be at least as densely packed as a
> quest however. Each ran 20 pages or so, and as the name implies,
> each took a week. (As head writer I also wrote 2 to 3 scripts and
> worked on ongoing story as well every week.) I can gladly go into
> more detail about why these more closely resemble quest building
> docs, but I want to move on. Simply because I'm probably the only
> person in our industry to have done both should suggest that there
> is some basis for my claim. Maybe not.
> As far as I'm concerned any quest builder that can't turn out
> multiple quests per day in whatever script language a game
> requires is either stealing his or her money, or not suited to
> games in the first place. Maybe they should try linear media.
> I am going to have some nice things to say however about the
> quests in DAoC below... But the bottom line is that because our
> industry often slips milestones, and because our industry really
> doesn't know how long it takes to write something, these
> projections of how long it takes to generate ongoing content get
> pulled like taffy, getting longer, impossibly longer, yet never
> breaking. And because our industry has never seen it work any
> other way, we want to assume that it can't. If there's a third
> definition of economically feasible (other than money or time),
> let me know. I'll try to address that too.
And I'd like to retract one part of the above. I've just finished
the level 25 part of my epic ranger quest. It was as nicely written
as anything I've seen in an MMO, and better than most. I really
think the fault in the content creation of DAoC may lie not in the
writers themselves, since for the most part they appear to have
talent. Rather it appears to stem from the fact that this area
seems to have had little overall vision applied to the style,
consistency and mechanics. The writing styles are different. The
quest mechanics vary. The quests rarely reference each other or the
backstory. The text is presented in huge expository blocks, and you
must rely on a one line synopsis the journal supplies to refer back
to them. Plus the hundreds of aforementioned anachronisms, spelling
and grammar errors, and finally the scarcity of content after all
that development time. This indicates a closed culture that doesn't
have a particularly high regard for writing, or an understanding of
its craft, and it must be hard in turn on the writers themselves.
Are my estimates of the number of quests, and the time it took
accurate? Did the lead designer think that only these few quests
would be sufficient, so no more were created? Or were there
actually thousands? Or did the quests back up because of the time
needed to code and test them? Could the quest builders write them
in a form easily translatable into code? Were sufficient
implementation structures in place? Were databases and flow charts
used to integrate them? Answers to these and other questions would
help those interested in telling stories at least have a better shot
at succeeding. With that time and that staff I would have expected
to see 10 times as many quest and story items in place at launch.
With a different corporate emphasis (more story, less preparing
lower levels for RvR) in two years I would have shot for AT LEAST
5000. Sound like a lot? With a staff of 6 that's less than 2
quests per person per day.
These are issues that are really ONLY relevent to those who WANT to
include story in their MMOs or MUDs, and I'd really like to hear
some other opinions and real life experiences in general, not
necessarily aimed at DAoC.
Lee - Story Implementation rayzam
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Lee Sheldon
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Marian Griffith
- Story Implementation Jeff Freeman
- Story Implementation Jeff Cole
- Story Implementation Valerio Santinelli
- From the linux-kernel list Jeff Cole
- Survey: Internet Cuts Into TV Time Michael Tresca
- Interesting DAoC Poll Lee Sheldon
- Interesting DAoC Poll Vincent Archer
- Interesting DAoC Poll Robert Fleck
- Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Interesting DAoC Poll Matt Mihaly
- Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Interesting DAoC Poll Matt Mihaly
- Project announcement: Cool++ ryan daum
- DAoC: Empowering Players to Alter the World (was: New laws) Lee Sheldon
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Nathan F. Yospe
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems rayzam
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- DGN: Chemistry based magic systems Sellers, Mike
- RuneSword Brian Hook
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Elia Morling
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Timothy Dang
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) John Buehler
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) John Buehler
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Marian Griffith
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Sellers, Mike
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Matt Mihaly
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Koster, Raph
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Bobby Martin
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Paul Schwanz
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Peter Harkins
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic Growth (Was: [STORY] Story and population size) Travis Nixon
- RE : Story Implementation Veynom
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Jeff Cole
- Economy (was [STORY] Story and population size) Dave Rickey
- RE : Story Implementation Veynom
- RE : Story Implementation Matt Mihaly
- economy and population size Adam Martin
- economy and population size J C Lawrence
- Art vs. Fun Michael Tresca
- Art vs. Fun Koster, Raph
- Art vs. Fun Matt Mihaly
- Art vs. Fun Matt Mihaly
- Art vs. Fun Robert Zubek
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Lars Duening
- First use of "avatar"? Matt Mihaly
- First use of "avatar"? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Casey
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Christopher Kohnert
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Casey
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Travis Nixon
- First use of "avatar"? Madman Across the Water
- First use of "avatar"? Takis Kalogiratos
- First use of "avatar"? Tamzen Cannoy
- First use of "avatar"? Dr. Cat
- First use of "avatar"? F. Randall Farmer
- First use of "avatar"? Mats Lidstrom
- First use of "avatar"? Koster, Raph
- First use of "avatar"? Nathan F. Yospe
- First use of "avatar"? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- First use of "avatar"? Richard A. Bartle
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy opteek
- Managing MUD economy Koster, Raph
- Managing MUD economy Derek Licciardi
- Managing MUD economy Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- Managing MUD economy Sasha Hart
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy Freeman, Jeff
- Managing MUD economy John Buehler
- Managing MUD economy Marian Griffith
- Managing MUD economy Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Managing MUD economy Adam Martin
- Managing MUD economy Sasha Hart
- Managing MUD economy Marc Hernandez
- Managing MUD economy Travis Casey
- Managing MUD economy Vladimir Prelovac
- Managing MUD economy Travis Casey
- Managing MUD economy William Murdick
- Managing MUD economy Timothy Dang
- MUD implementation issues. Marcus Johansson
- MUD implementation issues. J C Lawrence
- MUD implementation issues. Nicholas E. Walker
- MUD implementation issues. Phillip Lenhardt
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- MUD implementation issues. Jonathan Berling
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- MUD implementation issues. Marcus Johansson
- MUD implementation issues. Bruce Mitchener
- Economy Vincent Archer
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Dave Shepherd
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Azeraab
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll John Buehler
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Ten Rules of PvP was Interesting DAoC Poll Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Derek Licciardi
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Brian Hook
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Derek Licciardi
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Lee Sheldon
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Mike Caruso
- MMORPGs & MUDs Adam Martin
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Madrona Tree
- MMORPGs & MUDs John Buehler
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs David H. Loeser Jr.
- MMORPGs & MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MMORPGs & MUDs Freeman, Jeff
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs rayzam
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs William B. Taylor
- MMORPGs & MUDs Skaei@aol.com
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Madrona Tree
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Christopher Allen
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Vincent Archer
- MMORPGs & MUDs Dave Rickey
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs David Bennett
- MMORPGs & MUDs Marc Bowden
- MMORPGs & MUDs Freeman, Jeff
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Jeff Freeman
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Matt Mihaly
- MMORPGs & MUDs Wes Connell
- MMORPGs & MUDs Koster, Raph
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs Joel Palmtag
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michael Tresca
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- MMORPGs & MUDs Michelle Elbert
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sami Kosonen
- MMORPGs & MUDs Azeraab
- MMORPGs & MUDs Sellers, Mike
- MMORPGs & MUDs J C Lawrence
- Re[4]: Economy Travis Casey
- Eiffel Brian Hook
- ADMIN: Origin of "Avatar" thread J C Lawrence
- Call for Papers - NetGames2002 Tristan Henderson
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Brian Hook
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions rayzam
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Travis Casey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Andrew Hefford
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Jon Lambert
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Koster, Raph
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Dave Rickey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions John Buehler
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions rayzam
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions kyndig@kyndig.com
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Jon Lambert
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Peter Harkins
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Travis Casey
- Continuous versus Discrete Functions Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- LPC-Natural Language Parser z032383@students.niu.edu
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Jon Lambert
- [TECH] Event Queues in MUDs Christian Loth
- [TECH] algorithm request Malcolm Tester II
- [TECH] algorithm request William Murdick
- [TECH] algorithm request Lars Duening
- [TECH] algorithm request David Bennett
- [TECH] algorithm request Travis Casey
- [TECH] algorithm request Malcolm Tester II
- [TECH] algorithm request Adam Martin
- [TECH] algorithm request Eli Stevens
- [TECH] algorithm request Bobby Martin
- [TECH] algorithm request Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- non-'realistic' spatial models Nicholas E. Walker
- non-'realistic' spatial models rayzam
- non-'realistic' spatial models Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- non-'realistic' spatial models Cybrarian Rök
- non-'realistic' spatial models Nathan F. Yospe
- The Problem With "Massive" Michael Tresca
- The Ideal Player Michael Tresca
- The Ideal Player Lars Duening
- The Ideal Player Dave Rickey
- The Ideal Player Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs holding99@mindspring.com
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs Robert Zubek
- [Theory?] Parsing of knowledge to allow for more interactive NPCs holding99@mindspring.com
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Bruce Mitchener
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Bruce Mitchener
- CHI 2002: Funology: Designing Enjoyment Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [OFF TOPIC] Happy Holidays Derek Licciardi
- Are crafts fun? Adam Dray
- Are crafts fun? Michelle
- Are crafts fun? Bobby Martin
- Are crafts fun? Bobby Martin
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Jon A. Lambert
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation rayzam
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation amanda@alfar.com
- Gender differences -> spatial navigation Nathan F. Yospe
- Sex and MUDs... the_sage2000@juno.com
- Sex and MUDs... Jon Lambert
- Sex and MUDs... David Bennett
- Sex and MUDs... Travis Casey
- Sex and MUDs... Malcolm Tester II
- Sex and MUDs... Matt Mihaly
- Sex and MUDs... Adam Dray
- Some vworlds (maddog) related changes Frank Crowell
- Some vworlds (maddog) related changes Frank Crowell
- (no subject) claw@kanga.nu
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Marian Griffith
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #16 3 - 25 msgs) Sellers, Mike
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) amanda@alfar.com
- Boys and Girls - was (MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #163 - 25 msgs) mystran@ltv.cx
- Combat system in persistent world Veynom
- Combat system in persistent world J C Lawrence
- Taligent docs Bruce Mitchener
- Taligent docs Chris Corry
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Bobby Martin
- TECH: Servers in Java Emil Eifrem
- TECH: Servers in Java Aaron Mulder
- TECH: Servers in Java justice@softhome.net
- TECH: Servers in Java Brian Hook
- TECH: Servers in Java Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com