October 2001
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- Lum the Mad is closing--sort of Koster, Raph
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Eli Stevens
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Joe Andrieu
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Matt Mihaly
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Sellers, Mike
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Vincent Archer
- contract games/markets (was: Request for ideas) Bruce Mitchener
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Phil O'Donnell
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Dan MacDonald
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Robin Lee Powell
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Justin Rogers
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Adam Martin
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Frank Crowell
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) John Hopson
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Dave Rickey
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Matt Mihaly
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) rayzam
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Freeman, Jeff
- State of the RP: Verant's attempt at a RP Server Eric Rhea
- New MMP Networking Architecture Lee Sheldon
- New MMP Networking Architecture Adam Martin
- New MMP Networking Architecture Bruce Mitchener
- New MMP Networking Architecture Ling Lo
- New MMP Networking Architecture Norman Nunley, Jr.
- Mucking about in time Eli Stevens
- Mucking about in time Travis Casey
- Mucking about in time Adam Martin
- Mucking about in time John Robert Arras
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Ian Collyer
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Matt Mihaly
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Robin Lee Powell
- Pueblo still kicking Jon Lambert
- FWD: Call for papers: AAAI symposium on AI and Interactive Entertainment Robert Zubek
- Game Theory Introduction Ling Lo
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #438 - 22 msgs Phil O'Donnell
- Uniqueness of Games Adam Martin
- Uniqueness of Games Ling Lo
- Psychology & Player Motivation (was Geometric Content Generation) Sasha Hart
- Simulation, just how much? (was: Uniqueness of Games) Derek Licciardi
- Laws of Competition Matt Mihaly
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Dave Rickey
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Dave Rickey
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted Amanda Walker
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Ben Greear
- UDP Revisted amanda@alfar.com
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted David H. Loeser Jr.
- UDP Revisted Adam Martin
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Kwon Ekstrom
- UDP Revisted Bruce Mitchener
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Bruce Mitchener
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Brian Hook
- Procedural content generation John Buehler
- Procedural content generation Brian Hook
- Procedural content generation John Buehler
- Procedural content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Procedural content generation lhulbert@hotmail.com
- Procedural content generation Travis Nixon
- Procedural content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Procedural content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Freeman, Jeff
- Procedural content generation Matt Mihaly
- Procedural content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation, Christopher Allen
- Simulation, Travis Casey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Kennerly
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Robin Lee Powell
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Brian Hook
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Vincent Archer
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Derek Licciardi
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dan Burke
- Simulation, Adam Martin
- UDP Revisited Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisited Brian Hook
- UDP Revisited Mats Lidstrom
- UDP Revisited Jeremy Gaffney
- Simulation Revisited Dave Rickey
- TCP Vegas Adam Martin
- Procedural content generation, randomness Adam Martin
- Procedural content generation, randomness Brian Hook
- Content authorship Adam Martin
- Content authorship Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Content authorship Travis Casey
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Eli Stevens
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Dave Rickey
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Robin Lee Powell
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Brian Hook
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Neufeld, Don
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Brian Hook
- DAoC dev team Dave Rickey
- SSL vs. SASL (was: UDP Revisted) Bruce Mitchener
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #445 - 27 msgs Paul Schwanz
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #445 - 27 msgs Travis Nixon
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Freeman, Jeff
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Koster, Raph
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Koster, Raph
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law Jon Lambert
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Madman Across the Water
- Proposed Law Travis Nixon
- Proposed Law Mark Eaton
- Proposed Law Sami Kosonen
- Proposed Law Madman Across the Water
- Proposed Law Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
- Proposed Law Dan Burke
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Ian Collyer
- Proposed Law Matthew Estes
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Adam Martin
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Adam Martin
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing John Buehler
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Nathan F. Yospe
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Koster, Raph
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Derek Licciardi
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Jeff Cole
- Quality Testing Robin Lee Powell
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing J C Lawrence
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Paul Dahlke
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Players Controlling Monsters rayzam
- High Level Architecture Adam Martin
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Dave Rickey
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Amanda Walker
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Bobby Martin
- Networking architecture overview Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Connection Stats Ben Tolputt
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #443 - 12 msgs Dr. Cat
- Fourteen forms of fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Fourteen forms of fun rayzam
- Fourteen forms of fun Sasha Hart
- Fourteen forms of fun Jon Lambert
- Fourteen forms of fun David H. Loeser Jr.
- Fourteen forms of fun Matt Mihaly
- Fourteen forms of fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Incorporating Plot/Backstory/Scenario Design Tools Nathan F. Yospe
- Extreme Programing Ling Lo
- DAoC dev team Lars Duening
- Documentation Adam Martin
- Documentation Brian Hook
- English grammar thoughts Par Winzell
- English grammar thoughts Kylotan
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Jasper McChesney
- English grammar thoughts Marian Griffith
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Jasper McChesney
- English grammar thoughts bruce@puremagic.com
- English grammar thoughts Marian Griffith
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Robert Zubek
- English grammar thoughts Robert Zubek
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Chris Gray
- English grammar thoughts Jon Leonard
- ADMIN: The code documenting/commenting thread J C Lawrence
- Players Controlling Monsters David H. Loeser Jr.
- Players Controlling Monsters Brian Hook
- Players Controlling Monsters John Buehler
- Expectations of in-game reality Matt Mihaly
- Expectations of in-game reality Freeman, Jeff
- Expectations of in-game reality J C Lawrence
- Expectations of in-game reality Freeman, Jeff
- Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Expectations of in-game reality Lars Duening
- Expectations of in-game reality Marian Griffith
- Expectations of in-game reality Derek Licciardi
- Expectations of in-game reality Lars Duening
- Expectations of in-game reality Paul Schwanz
- Expectations of in-game reality Nip
- Expectations of in-game reality Ian Collyer
- Expectations of in-game reality Adam Martin
- Expectations of in-game reality Michael Tresca
- Expectations of in-game reality J C Lawrence
- Expectations of in-game reality Matt Mihaly
- Expectations of in-game reality Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Expectations of in-game reality Eli Stevens
- Expectations of in-game reality Marian Griffith
- Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Expectations of in-game reality Sami Kosonen
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Sami Kosonen
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs Matthew Estes
- Respecting NPCs Chris Gray
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Freeman, Jeff
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Freeman, Jeff
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Respecting NPCs rayzam
- Respecting NPCs Joe Andrieu
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Joe Andrieu
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs T.A.J.BARTON
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Madman Across the Water
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs John Buehler
- Respecting NPCs lazarus@ourplace.org
- Respecting NPCs Colin Coghill
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Phillip Lenhardt
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Norman Nunley, Jr.
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Brian Hook
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs Matthew D. Fuller
- Respecting NPCs Timothy Dang
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- TECH : RMI (was UDP Revisted) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH : RMI (was UDP Revisted) Bobby Martin
- Chatbots Adam Martin
- TECH: UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- The function of NPCs in novels versus MUDs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- RE: Koster, Raph
- RE: Joe Andrieu
- RE: Marian Griffith
- RE: Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- RE: Jeff Cole
- RE: Bobby Martin
- RE: rayzam
- RE: Joe Andrieu
- RE: Jeff Cole
From: "Joe Andrieu" <jandrieu@caltech.edu>
> From: Jeff Cole <jeff.cole@mindspring.com>
> What's perhaps more true is that violence is natural. Not
> enlightened perhaps, but natural. People understand it at a deep,
> primal level. It is so deeply connected with our reflexes that it
> takes years of socialization to turn humans into civilized people.
Please read my post again. Let me be clear: violence is natural,
but in nature, violence is rarely (if ever) a prime mover. It is a
response to some other impetus. I never claimed that it was in some
way unnatural; I argued that it was not a prime mover and that it is
a common mistake to extend violence as a "natural" (your word and
one with which I am not entirely comfortable) building block of
human behaviour while ignoring the fact that violence is, by design,
the only behaviour by which a player can advance their character.
That is to say, that violence is a building block because developers
design violence as a building block and not because violence is a
prime mover of human behaviour.
I also disagree with your assertion that people understand violence
on a "deep, primal level." Perhaps you are just being careless with
language. I would argue that, as a species, we do not understand
violence except in cases where the violence is a response to deep,
primal stimuli (defense of self or close relation from threat
imminent great bodily harm or death). Though I love a good
philosophical debate on violence, this list is not the place for
one. Heh.
>> I disagree. Or, more accurately, I disagree that it is the
>> designer's responsibility to directly supply context. To
>> directly supply context limits the depth of the context and
>> story. It is the designer's responsibility to provide the tools
>> by which players can create context and story.
> Ah hah! It seems we have a fundamental disagreement here. IMO,
> there is much to be said for the paradigmatic view that "Context
> is the content", to revise McLuhan.
Though I might not have been clear, you misunderstand me. I do not
consider content equivalent to context. Indeed, I argue it is a
mistake to equate them.
For MM*'s, developers should be loathe to provide context beyond the
milieu and underlying game physics. Ongoing context should be
limited to subtle pressures exerted on gameplay (i.e. economic
pressures, MOB migrations, spawn/drop rates, experience
distributions, etc.). At the same time, developers should supply
quite a bit of content (i.e. MOB types, items, and most importantly,
options).
To the extent that a developer allows the players the freedom to
create context through the disposition of the content, the gaming
experience will be likewise more immersive. Similarly, given
persistence and MM* (PerMM*?), the more context or "story"
developers impose on the population, the less immersive the gaming
experience. [Note: the second statement is oversimplified for the
sake of argument, but the sentiment is sound.]
> Sure, you can make toys which are fun without context (Lincoln
> Logs, Erector sets, etc.) Even games (Chess, Go, etc.) But we
> have seen time and again that generally, the richer the context,
> the better the game. See Myst--Zork on contextual amphetamines or
> the classic Civilization which just keeps adding more and more
> context. Look at the Sims. Simple game engine, really rich
> context.
> Even in those games which espouse the design paradigm you advocate
> here, there is incredibly rich context. In fact, maybe you really
> mean content here...
That none of those games qualify as PerMM*, demonstrates the degree
to which the single-player design paradigm permeates your analysis.
Conceding for the moment that I have espoused a paradigm sufficient
to analyze, it should be obvious that such paradigm applies to
PerMM* design.
> Whichever you mean, as long as you are restraining your design to
> a Game, then feel free to focus on tools and allow users to build
> their own content/context. That's a fine paradigm. Makes good
> games. Makes for entertaining products.
> But don't think that the limits of this paradigm make sense when
> considering the entirety of interactive entertainment.
I am not addressing the entirety of interactive entertainment. I am
addressing games that are PerMM*. It seems from your post that you
are far more interested in interactivity with the game itself rather
than interactivity among concurrent players. While selfish, it is
in no way unreasonable. However, it is also does not apply to my
argument.
> IMNSHO, there is a phenomenal opportunity in interactive
> entertainment which has never been possible in any other
> medium. For the first time, the media format is capable of
> dynamically generating first-person story experiences for members
> of the audience, where players get to be the hero in their own
> adventure, unfolding through the nature exploration of the
> environment and driven by their own motivations, curiosity, and
> emotional needs.
Everything you just described can be better implemented in a
single-player game. In a PerMM*, developers cannot provide for
every player playing the hero because context is necessarily
dependent upon the actions of others.
> In other words, we have the opportunity to transform a free-form
> interaction into a well-formed story arc with all the emotional
> engagement of classic drama.
This is impossible given a PerMM* of any size and population. It
cannot be well-formed if only you consider the differences in
time-played for players. It cannot be a single story for many of
the same reasons.
> It is true that no one has done this successfully yet. But it is,
> IMO, a worthy goal... Simply asserting that it is not the
> designers responsibility to do so limits the perspective on what
> we create.
Not so. I argue that developers should provide players the tools
(i.e. "content") to develop their stories ingame.
> Players don't really want to create their own stories. They want
> to live them. When was the last time your average player sat down
> and crafted their own story from start to finish. As a short prose
> story? As a play? A home video movie? Shockwave? Anything?
> People prefer buying the works of professional storytellers for
> the same reason they like to buy clothes designed and manufactured
> by professionals.
> Generally, the quality is much higher than what we would produce
> ourselves.
> Yes, there are players who are motivated enough to dive into a MUD
> and create their whole life story just so they can have rich
> interactions with their friends. But that population is small
> compared to the mainstream market for consumer entertainment.
> I could not disagree more. Respectfully, so, but strongly. Players
> rarely have the first clue about how to develop stories. Current
> hobbyist players are willing to go to great lengths, but the
> average Joe will not. Are you aware of the % of buyers of the
> Sims ever actually uploaded a full story? (hint: it's not a lot).
Again, you misunderstand. I argue that developers should provide
players the freedom to let the stories develop through playing the
game. Players always have a much better intuitive grasp on gameplay
(economics, physics, etc.) than the developers. By providing
players with strong contextual foundation (game physics) and freedom
to explore the gamespace (not just the environmental "space," but
also the feature "space"), players will necessarily have the
opportunity to enjoy and participate in a much more immersive gaming
experience.
The condescending attitude that somehow (beyond providing the
gamespace) the PerMM* developers, rather than other players, are
better suited to entertain is rather shocking. Were I given to
hyperbole, I would invoke Hybris, Ate and Nemesis.
Jeff Cole - RE: rayzam
- RE: Jeff Cole
- RE: Marian Griffith
- RE: gamaiun@yahoo.com
- RE: Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Violence Matt Mihaly
- Quality Testing (and community) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- ADMIN: Recent outages J C Lawrence
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Adam Martin
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Ian Collyer
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Dave Rickey
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Eli Stevens
- Statistics Adam Martin
- Statistics Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Statistics John Buehler
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Travis Casey