October 2001
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- Lum the Mad is closing--sort of Koster, Raph
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Eli Stevens
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Joe Andrieu
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Matt Mihaly
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Sellers, Mike
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Vincent Archer
- contract games/markets (was: Request for ideas) Bruce Mitchener
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Phil O'Donnell
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Dan MacDonald
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Robin Lee Powell
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Justin Rogers
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Adam Martin
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Frank Crowell
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) John Hopson
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Dave Rickey
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Matt Mihaly
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) rayzam
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Freeman, Jeff
- State of the RP: Verant's attempt at a RP Server Eric Rhea
- New MMP Networking Architecture Lee Sheldon
- New MMP Networking Architecture Adam Martin
- New MMP Networking Architecture Bruce Mitchener
- New MMP Networking Architecture Ling Lo
- New MMP Networking Architecture Norman Nunley, Jr.
- Mucking about in time Eli Stevens
- Mucking about in time Travis Casey
- Mucking about in time Adam Martin
- Mucking about in time John Robert Arras
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Ian Collyer
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Matt Mihaly
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Robin Lee Powell
- Pueblo still kicking Jon Lambert
- FWD: Call for papers: AAAI symposium on AI and Interactive Entertainment Robert Zubek
- Game Theory Introduction Ling Lo
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #438 - 22 msgs Phil O'Donnell
- Uniqueness of Games Adam Martin
- Uniqueness of Games Ling Lo
- Psychology & Player Motivation (was Geometric Content Generation) Sasha Hart
- Simulation, just how much? (was: Uniqueness of Games) Derek Licciardi
- Laws of Competition Matt Mihaly
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Dave Rickey
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Dave Rickey
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted Amanda Walker
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Ben Greear
- UDP Revisted amanda@alfar.com
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted David H. Loeser Jr.
- UDP Revisted Adam Martin
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Kwon Ekstrom
- UDP Revisted Bruce Mitchener
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Bruce Mitchener
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Brian Hook
- Procedural content generation John Buehler
- Procedural content generation Brian Hook
- Procedural content generation John Buehler
- Procedural content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Procedural content generation lhulbert@hotmail.com
- Procedural content generation Travis Nixon
- Procedural content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Procedural content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Freeman, Jeff
- Procedural content generation Matt Mihaly
- Procedural content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation, Christopher Allen
- Simulation, Travis Casey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Kennerly
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Robin Lee Powell
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Brian Hook
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Vincent Archer
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Derek Licciardi
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dan Burke
- Simulation, Adam Martin
- UDP Revisited Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisited Brian Hook
- UDP Revisited Mats Lidstrom
- UDP Revisited Jeremy Gaffney
- Simulation Revisited Dave Rickey
- TCP Vegas Adam Martin
- Procedural content generation, randomness Adam Martin
- Procedural content generation, randomness Brian Hook
- Content authorship Adam Martin
- Content authorship Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Content authorship Travis Casey
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Eli Stevens
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Dave Rickey
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Robin Lee Powell
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Brian Hook
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Neufeld, Don
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Brian Hook
- DAoC dev team Dave Rickey
- SSL vs. SASL (was: UDP Revisted) Bruce Mitchener
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #445 - 27 msgs Paul Schwanz
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #445 - 27 msgs Travis Nixon
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Freeman, Jeff
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Koster, Raph
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Koster, Raph
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law Jon Lambert
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Madman Across the Water
- Proposed Law Travis Nixon
- Proposed Law Mark Eaton
- Proposed Law Sami Kosonen
- Proposed Law Madman Across the Water
- Proposed Law Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
- Proposed Law Dan Burke
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Ian Collyer
- Proposed Law Matthew Estes
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Adam Martin
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Adam Martin
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing John Buehler
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Nathan F. Yospe
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Koster, Raph
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Derek Licciardi
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Jeff Cole
- Quality Testing Robin Lee Powell
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing J C Lawrence
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Paul Dahlke
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Players Controlling Monsters rayzam
- High Level Architecture Adam Martin
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Dave Rickey
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Amanda Walker
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Bobby Martin
- Networking architecture overview Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Connection Stats Ben Tolputt
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #443 - 12 msgs Dr. Cat
- Fourteen forms of fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Fourteen forms of fun rayzam
- Fourteen forms of fun Sasha Hart
- Fourteen forms of fun Jon Lambert
- Fourteen forms of fun David H. Loeser Jr.
- Fourteen forms of fun Matt Mihaly
- Fourteen forms of fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Incorporating Plot/Backstory/Scenario Design Tools Nathan F. Yospe
- Extreme Programing Ling Lo
- DAoC dev team Lars Duening
- Documentation Adam Martin
- Documentation Brian Hook
- English grammar thoughts Par Winzell
- English grammar thoughts Kylotan
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Jasper McChesney
- English grammar thoughts Marian Griffith
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Jasper McChesney
- English grammar thoughts bruce@puremagic.com
- English grammar thoughts Marian Griffith
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Robert Zubek
- English grammar thoughts Robert Zubek
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Chris Gray
- English grammar thoughts Jon Leonard
- ADMIN: The code documenting/commenting thread J C Lawrence
- Players Controlling Monsters David H. Loeser Jr.
- Players Controlling Monsters Brian Hook
- Players Controlling Monsters John Buehler
- Expectations of in-game reality Matt Mihaly
- Expectations of in-game reality Freeman, Jeff
- Expectations of in-game reality J C Lawrence
- Expectations of in-game reality Freeman, Jeff
- Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Expectations of in-game reality Lars Duening
- Expectations of in-game reality Marian Griffith
- Expectations of in-game reality Derek Licciardi
- Expectations of in-game reality Lars Duening
- Expectations of in-game reality Paul Schwanz
- Expectations of in-game reality Nip
- Expectations of in-game reality Ian Collyer
- Expectations of in-game reality Adam Martin
- Expectations of in-game reality Michael Tresca
- Expectations of in-game reality J C Lawrence
- Expectations of in-game reality Matt Mihaly
- Expectations of in-game reality Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Expectations of in-game reality Eli Stevens
- Expectations of in-game reality Marian Griffith
- Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Expectations of in-game reality Sami Kosonen
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Sami Kosonen
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs Matthew Estes
- Respecting NPCs Chris Gray
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Freeman, Jeff
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Freeman, Jeff
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Respecting NPCs rayzam
- Respecting NPCs Joe Andrieu
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Joe Andrieu
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs T.A.J.BARTON
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Madman Across the Water
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs John Buehler
- Respecting NPCs lazarus@ourplace.org
- Respecting NPCs Colin Coghill
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Phillip Lenhardt
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Norman Nunley, Jr.
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Brian Hook
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs Matthew D. Fuller
- Respecting NPCs Timothy Dang
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- TECH : RMI (was UDP Revisted) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH : RMI (was UDP Revisted) Bobby Martin
- Chatbots Adam Martin
- TECH: UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- The function of NPCs in novels versus MUDs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- RE: Koster, Raph
- RE: Joe Andrieu
- RE: Marian Griffith
- RE: Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- RE: Jeff Cole
- RE: Bobby Martin
- RE: rayzam
- RE: Joe Andrieu
From: Jeff Cole
> On Wednesday, October 31, Marian Griffith wrote:
>> Raph Koster:
> The same is not true of violence. In nature, violence is rarely a
> prime mover and almost always a response to some other urge or
> appetite. Even for humans, what appears on the surface to be
> violence for violence's sake is arguably violence motivated by
> more complex appetites.
> The distinction is important because it speaks directly to design.
> A simple /tell or /send implementation provides all the
> infrastructure necessary for Sex to emerge in the game. These
> mechanisms are not implemented specifically for Sex, but rather,
> to facilitate player communication within the game. Sex (and, too
> a much greater extent Friendship) directly motivates a player's
> actions in-game.
This is an intriguing distinction. Makes me think about things in a
way I hadn't before. I think Bobby Martin makes a good comment on
the inherent motivation to "play" at violence.
What's perhaps more true is that violence is natural. Not
enlightened perhaps, but natural. People understand it at a deep,
primal level. It is so deeply connected with our reflexes that it
takes years of socialization to turn humans into civilized people.
All of which is to say that it is an easy target for designers.
>> In general it is the contextualisation that -makes- the story,
>> because it gives the underly- ing forces meaning and direction
>> ...
> That is a tasty nugget, that one.
> To compare, vis-a-vis entertainment, such games to a book or a
> movie yields no useful insight. Such games need to be compared to
> a range of books and/or range of movies. It seems that the
> argument here (and industry-wide belief in general) is that
> designers should provide more context and therefore more story.
> I disagree. Or, more accurately, I disagree that it is the
> designer's responsibility to directly supply context. To directly
> supply context limits the depth of the context and story. It is
> the designer's responsibility to provide the tools by which
> players can create context and story.
Ah hah! It seems we have a fundamental disagreement here. IMO,
there is much to be said for the paradigmatic view that "Context is
the content", to revise McLuhan.
Sure, you can make toys which are fun without context (Lincoln Logs,
Erector sets, etc.) Even games (Chess, Go, etc.) But we have seen
time and again that generally, the richer the context, the better
the game. See Myst--Zork on contextual amphetamines or the classic
Civilization which just keeps adding more and more context. Look at
the Sims. Simple game engine, really rich context.
Even in those games which espouse the design paradigm you advocate
here, there is incredibly rich context. In fact, maybe you really
mean content here...
Whichever you mean, as long as you are restraining your design to a
Game, then feel free to focus on tools and allow users to build
their own content/context. That's a fine paradigm. Makes good
games. Makes for entertaining products.
But don't think that the limits of this paradigm make sense when
considering the entirety of interactive entertainment. IMNSHO,
there is a phenomenal opportunity in interactive entertainment which
has never been possible in any other medium. For the first time, the
media format is capable of dynamically generating first-person story
experiences for members of the audience, where players get to be the
hero in their own adventure, unfolding through the nature
exploration of the environment and driven by their own motivations,
curiosity, and emotional needs. In other words, we have the
opportunity to transform a free-form interaction into a well-formed
story arc with all the emotional engagement of classic drama.
It is true that no one has done this successfully yet. But it is,
IMO, a worthy goal... Simply asserting that it is not the designers
responsibility to do so limits the perspective on what we create.
>> It is, in fact, worse than the worst horror B-movie, which does
>> at least justify showing nudity and violence with a very thin
>> veneer of reactionary morals. In short, games have no story.
> To the extent that such games are multiplayer, the question is
> should they have inherent story? Again, I argue it is the
> designer's responsibility to provide the players the tools to
> create their own rich stories with depth; it is the designer's
> responsibility not to limit unreasonably limit players' ability to
> develop such stories.
Players don't really want to create their own stories. They want to
live them. When was the last time your average player sat down and
crafted their own story from start to finish. As a short prose
story? As a play? A home video movie? Shockwave? Anything?
People prefer buying the works of professional storytellers for the
same reason they like to buy clothes designed and manufactured by
professionals. Generally, the quality is much higher than what we
would produce ourselves.
Yes, there are players who are motivated enough to dive into a MUD
and create their whole life story just so they can have rich
interactions with their friends. But that population is small
compared to the mainstream market for consumer entertainment.
>>> If we want to go on a crusade to fix something, how about we fix
>>> the fact that your average cartoon does a better job at
>>> portraying the human condition than our games do?
>> The problem, as I see it, is that online games have no story to
>> tell. Therefor they can not offer context or meaning, only
>> facades They look impressive at first, but soon you start to
>> notice there is no substance behind it. Perhaps Skotos is taking
>> a small step in the right direction by offering an elaborate
>> stage, but no content, other than that the storytellers are
>> producing.
> Bingo! Why is that a small step? I think this is a rather
> important realization. That Marian would consider it a small step
> speaks to the extent that the traditional groupthink is ingrained
> in the approach to development.
Skotos is doing great things to bring story as role-playing into
MUDs at the level of quality we expect of a commercial product. But
don't limit yourself to worlds where the players are forced to write
the script. You'll find you have very few players. (By the way, I
believe Skotos has a more active hand in the story than the post
here suggests.)
>> Of course this relies on story tellers (or in the absence
>> thereof, on the players entertaining themselves by dreaming up
>> conflicts and romances).
> The players are the best-suited to develop stories. The dogged
> determination to apply single player game development approaches
> to multiplayer games continues to hinder the development of truly
> immersive gaming experiences.
I could not disagree more. Respectfully, so, but strongly. Players
rarely have the first clue about how to develop stories. Current
hobbyist players are willing to go to great lengths, but the average
Joe will not. Are you aware of the % of buyers of the Sims ever
actually uploaded a full story? (hint: it's not a lot).
Can you really afford to limit your product to 5% maybe even 2% of
the total potential market? You could, but I wouldn't if I were
you.
That said, I don't think "single-player game development approaches"
are the right way to go either. There are a number of alternative
approaches to creating story in multi-player environments. And I'm
certain that one of these days, someone will figure out a way to do
it.
-j
--
Joe Andrieu
Realtime Drama
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (626) 395-8045 - RE: Marian Griffith
- RE: gamaiun@yahoo.com
- RE: Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Violence Matt Mihaly
- Quality Testing (and community) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- ADMIN: Recent outages J C Lawrence
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Adam Martin
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Ian Collyer
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Dave Rickey
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Eli Stevens
- Statistics Adam Martin
- Statistics Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Statistics John Buehler
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Travis Casey