October 2001
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- Lum the Mad is closing--sort of Koster, Raph
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Eli Stevens
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Joe Andrieu
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Matt Mihaly
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Sellers, Mike
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Vincent Archer
- contract games/markets (was: Request for ideas) Bruce Mitchener
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Phil O'Donnell
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Dan MacDonald
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Robin Lee Powell
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Justin Rogers
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Adam Martin
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Frank Crowell
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) John Hopson
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Dave Rickey
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Matt Mihaly
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) rayzam
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Freeman, Jeff
- State of the RP: Verant's attempt at a RP Server Eric Rhea
- New MMP Networking Architecture Lee Sheldon
- New MMP Networking Architecture Adam Martin
- New MMP Networking Architecture Bruce Mitchener
- New MMP Networking Architecture Ling Lo
- New MMP Networking Architecture Norman Nunley, Jr.
- Mucking about in time Eli Stevens
- Mucking about in time Travis Casey
- Mucking about in time Adam Martin
- Mucking about in time John Robert Arras
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Ian Collyer
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Matt Mihaly
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Robin Lee Powell
- Pueblo still kicking Jon Lambert
- FWD: Call for papers: AAAI symposium on AI and Interactive Entertainment Robert Zubek
- Game Theory Introduction Ling Lo
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #438 - 22 msgs Phil O'Donnell
- Uniqueness of Games Adam Martin
- Uniqueness of Games Ling Lo
- Psychology & Player Motivation (was Geometric Content Generation) Sasha Hart
- Simulation, just how much? (was: Uniqueness of Games) Derek Licciardi
- Laws of Competition Matt Mihaly
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Dave Rickey
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Dave Rickey
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted Amanda Walker
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Ben Greear
- UDP Revisted amanda@alfar.com
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted David H. Loeser Jr.
- UDP Revisted Adam Martin
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Kwon Ekstrom
- UDP Revisted Bruce Mitchener
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Bruce Mitchener
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Brian Hook
- Procedural content generation John Buehler
- Procedural content generation Brian Hook
- Procedural content generation John Buehler
- Procedural content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Procedural content generation lhulbert@hotmail.com
- Procedural content generation Travis Nixon
- Procedural content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Procedural content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Freeman, Jeff
- Procedural content generation Matt Mihaly
- Procedural content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation, Christopher Allen
- Simulation, Travis Casey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Kennerly
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Robin Lee Powell
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Brian Hook
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Vincent Archer
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Derek Licciardi
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dan Burke
- Simulation, Adam Martin
- UDP Revisited Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisited Brian Hook
- UDP Revisited Mats Lidstrom
- UDP Revisited Jeremy Gaffney
- Simulation Revisited Dave Rickey
- TCP Vegas Adam Martin
- Procedural content generation, randomness Adam Martin
- Procedural content generation, randomness Brian Hook
- Content authorship Adam Martin
- Content authorship Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Content authorship Travis Casey
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Eli Stevens
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Dave Rickey
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Robin Lee Powell
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Brian Hook
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Neufeld, Don
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Brian Hook
- DAoC dev team Dave Rickey
- SSL vs. SASL (was: UDP Revisted) Bruce Mitchener
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #445 - 27 msgs Paul Schwanz
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #445 - 27 msgs Travis Nixon
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Freeman, Jeff
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Koster, Raph
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Koster, Raph
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law Jon Lambert
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Madman Across the Water
- Proposed Law Travis Nixon
- Proposed Law Mark Eaton
- Proposed Law Sami Kosonen
- Proposed Law Madman Across the Water
- Proposed Law Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
- Proposed Law Dan Burke
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Ian Collyer
- Proposed Law Matthew Estes
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Adam Martin
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Adam Martin
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing John Buehler
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Nathan F. Yospe
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Koster, Raph
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Derek Licciardi
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Jeff Cole
- Quality Testing Robin Lee Powell
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing J C Lawrence
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Paul Dahlke
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Players Controlling Monsters rayzam
- High Level Architecture Adam Martin
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Dave Rickey
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Amanda Walker
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Bobby Martin
- Networking architecture overview Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Connection Stats Ben Tolputt
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #443 - 12 msgs Dr. Cat
- Fourteen forms of fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Fourteen forms of fun rayzam
- Fourteen forms of fun Sasha Hart
- Fourteen forms of fun Jon Lambert
- Fourteen forms of fun David H. Loeser Jr.
- Fourteen forms of fun Matt Mihaly
- Fourteen forms of fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Incorporating Plot/Backstory/Scenario Design Tools Nathan F. Yospe
- Extreme Programing Ling Lo
- DAoC dev team Lars Duening
- Documentation Adam Martin
- Documentation Brian Hook
- English grammar thoughts Par Winzell
- English grammar thoughts Kylotan
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Jasper McChesney
- English grammar thoughts Marian Griffith
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Jasper McChesney
- English grammar thoughts bruce@puremagic.com
- English grammar thoughts Marian Griffith
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Robert Zubek
- English grammar thoughts Robert Zubek
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Chris Gray
- English grammar thoughts Jon Leonard
- ADMIN: The code documenting/commenting thread J C Lawrence
- Players Controlling Monsters David H. Loeser Jr.
- Players Controlling Monsters Brian Hook
- Players Controlling Monsters John Buehler
- Expectations of in-game reality Matt Mihaly
- Expectations of in-game reality Freeman, Jeff
- Expectations of in-game reality J C Lawrence
- Expectations of in-game reality Freeman, Jeff
- Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Expectations of in-game reality Lars Duening
- Expectations of in-game reality Marian Griffith
- Expectations of in-game reality Derek Licciardi
- Expectations of in-game reality Lars Duening
- Expectations of in-game reality Paul Schwanz
- Expectations of in-game reality Nip
- Expectations of in-game reality Ian Collyer
- Expectations of in-game reality Adam Martin
- Expectations of in-game reality Michael Tresca
- Expectations of in-game reality J C Lawrence
- Expectations of in-game reality Matt Mihaly
- Expectations of in-game reality Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Expectations of in-game reality Eli Stevens
- Expectations of in-game reality Marian Griffith
- Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Expectations of in-game reality Sami Kosonen
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Sami Kosonen
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs Matthew Estes
- Respecting NPCs Chris Gray
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Freeman, Jeff
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Freeman, Jeff
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Respecting NPCs rayzam
- Respecting NPCs Joe Andrieu
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Joe Andrieu
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs T.A.J.BARTON
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Madman Across the Water
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs John Buehler
- Respecting NPCs lazarus@ourplace.org
- Respecting NPCs Colin Coghill
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:55:47 -0700 (PDT)
gamaiun <gamaiun@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> How about inscrutable not-quite-deterministic NPCs?
> I think I see what you're getting at by describing this _other_
> kind of NPC - compelling, mysterious... living.
Actually, no. Compelling NPCs are interesting to be sure, but
there's little reason for them to be either common or even
predominant.
In a world of independent prickly stick-up-for-themselves
characters, the sheep is very visible.
Defining mystery is not easy. I'm looking for NPCs which are not
necessarily mysterious in the sense of having obvious secrets or
hidden purposes/actions, but rather mysterious in the manner of
simply not revealed but visibly present.
Your workmate is a quiet type. You not he has a wedding ring,
that he brings in lunch in paper bags which often have crayon
scribbles, and that there's a child's car seat in his car. From
this you determine that he's married and has at least one kid who
is under 4 years old.
Yet you never see the kid, the kid is never mentioned, you don't
know the kid is even his (versus a relative/neighbor's), you know
nothing about his wife or even if she exists or is alive, etc.
You note that he collects empty plastic bottles at work from the
cans of licorice and pretzels and that he takes them away when he
has a dozen or more. Its an obviously purposed activity, but one
whose purpose is neither revealed or necessarily subject to
exposure thru analysis or observation.
It is mysterious in the sense that there is a mystery and it is not
answered. It is not mysterious in that there is no light cast on
the mystery, no reason for attention on it, and no vaunted secrecy
surrounding it. This of course doesn't mean that the murkier sorts
of mystery can't be there, just that they are not required.
Living? Hard to define that one. In the sense of "credible" (the
term I used), yes.
> What shall we call this kind of NPCs? I mean we need some kind of
> terminology for this discussion. Compelling? Literary-quality?
> Alive?
"Incidental outgrowth"?
> On the same note, what are the qualities of such NPCs, that make
> them stand out from the mechanical rest?
They are visibly purposed, their activities are credible, and they
reward (if not necessarily profit) examination and analysis.
> Here's a brainstorm of qualities, to start with.
> - Interaction? These NPCs need to be able to interact, both with
> the game world, and with players. If they merely interact with
> the game world, but never with players (such as Father William,
> who was only mentioned in a story, but never, AFAIK, interacted
> with Alice), then they're nothing more than well-crafted pieces
> of literature.
I don't see this as a useful distinction. Its critical in that it
limits player interaction requirements from an implementation
viewpoint, but has little effect on perceived story, or use by a
player in their own stories.
> What makes compelling _literary_ characters is another matter
> entirely, I think, and I'm sure volumes have been written on the
> subject.
The criteria of what makes and defines human interest, or
specifically, what identifiable qualities will necessarily invoke
that sort of interest and quality reaction is still a very murky
area.
> What makes _NPCs_ unique is that players can interact with them,
> adding another dimension.
What if players were unable to directly interact with them (eg no
speech, and no direct effects) other than by manipulating the world
around the NPC and then seeing what the NPC did as a result?
> If they only interact with players, but not with the game world,
> then they come across as 'mechanical', as simply props for the
> players' benefit.
Quite.
> - Purpose/Motivation? Purpose is a dangerous word, actually. It
> implies that the NPCs were put there _on purpose_ by the admins,
> which is read as entirely for the benefit of the players (or as
> a prop to some quest).
That's one possible definition of purpose. It ignores the case of
the NPC embodying or carrying out a purpose which is not related to
either direct game actions or players. ie, their purposes, if
determined by a player, will be seen as incidental outgrowths of the
game, and which are also credible within the game milieu.
> By purpose I mean, the NPCs have a place in the world, some kind
> of role they play there outside of the players. Take a town
> guard, for example. If all the guard does is automagically sense
> player-committed crimes and arrive at the scene ready to
> slay. The 'purpose' of such a guard is readily guessable by the
> players, and is rightly seen as fake or tasteless. However, take
> a different town guard who leaves the barraks at a scheduled
> time, patrols the streets, fights off intruding monsters
> crawling out of the sewer, stops player crimes, stops _NPC_
> crimes (like a mob pickpocket, for example), takes lunch breaks,
> and if killed, will be missed at the barraks, and will have his
> name inscribed on the wall along with the rest of the town's
> brave defenders. What a difference (and without stretching
> current AI techniques)! This second guard has a _purpose_, a
> place in town, he's not just a prop but now a proper inhabitant.
What about a guard who:
Always wears a red string necklace, limps slightly favouring his
left leg and wears the boot rolled down on that leg. Regularly
accepts bribes from madams, but is unequivocably ferocious with
prostitutes and pick pockets. Seems to have a soft spot for
flower stalls. For some reason one of the stall vendors, and it
varies as to which, gives him a bunch of flowers every week. Its
not clear why they give them (they are expensive), or what
determines which vendor will give them. He always graciously
thanks them resulting in both sides smiling and bowing. Its also
not clear why he accepts them or what he does with them, except
that he's been occasionally known to peel off a flower and give it
to a madam, who for some reason is then usually very flustered.
> Motivation is a related concept. Even the _illusion_ of motivation
> is sometimes enough! Give some sense of internal motivation to
> your NPCs and monsters, from self-preservation, to greed, to
> simple kindness.
Why so coarse and base? Why not motivate in more realistic manners
He's saving to build a wall around his wife's garden as a present.
His kid's leg was broken by an outsider mercenary who then
vanished. This fact is neither easily determinable or necessarily
exposed by the game, but it results in that guard being
considerably rougher on taller blonde mercenaries, or in fact any
tall blond with scars.
> - Complexity. I think this mysterious quality of the kinds of
> NPCs JC was talking about is an emergent property, something
> that comes with a sufficient level of complexity.
It can be emergent. I don't think it necessarily is. The Cheshire
Cat is quite simplisitic.
> What kind of complexity? Motivation is one axis of complexity,
> ranging from a sewer slime who mindlessly gobbles all in its
> path, to a raven who gobbles, looks for mates, steals shiny
> objects and has a sense of self-preservation, to the
> aforementioned town guard, who has all the previous motivations,
> plus that of guarding the town and even gambling on the side.
I'd say that the visible effects of customised/personal value
judgements are the most telling criteria. Bubba is a character not
because he is different, but because he visibly make decisions on
personal criteria and value assignments which are unique (in some
sense or flavour) to him.
> Interaction is another axis - it's not enough to just interact
> with both world and player (as in the previous point), but
> interact in how many ways? Can the NPC be attacked and killed?
> Does it have valuables to be stolen? How about secrets, which a
> mind-reading mage can discover? Can he/she be hired? Offended
> or befriended? Will it pass along rumours to other NPCs? Scream
> for help or yell encouragements? And so on. In general, the
> complexity of an NPC's internal programming, for whatever
> purpose, falls under this category.
<shrug>
This tend to be the sort of thing that annoys me in NPCs as its just
layer of mechanical feedback mechanisms. Its now not just a
shopkeeper it has other buttons as well, which when pushed, will
pre-deterministically and repeatably generate the same results.
Even a trained dog is less mechanically deterministic and
predictable than this.
> - Detail. This is different from complexity. How many loving
> details does an NPC have, whether hand-coded or automatically
> generated from a well-put-together algorithm? Accents, mannerisms,
> scars, tears in clothing, signature actions (phrases, spells,
> combat moves), unique equipment, phobias -- the list goes on
> forever. Even a detailed description can go a long way towards
> this (and again we cross into the realm of the literary).
Taking the example guard I wrote about above, and his red string
necklace and left leg favouring, I find the fact of those
characteristics utterly uninteresting. What is interesting is that
there may be a reason (and in fact there is), and that reason and
its implications on the guards observed behaviour and purpose
patterns __may__ be partially determinable by a player.
For the same reasons however I'm much more tempted to do away with
such mass populous NPCs entirely. Make NPCs rare signature LEDOs.
--
J C Lawrence
---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh?
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. - Respecting NPCs Phillip Lenhardt
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Norman Nunley, Jr.
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Brian Hook
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs Matthew D. Fuller
- Respecting NPCs Timothy Dang
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- TECH : RMI (was UDP Revisted) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH : RMI (was UDP Revisted) Bobby Martin
- Chatbots Adam Martin
- TECH: UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- The function of NPCs in novels versus MUDs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- RE: Koster, Raph
- RE: Joe Andrieu
- RE: Marian Griffith
- RE: gamaiun@yahoo.com
- RE: Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Violence Matt Mihaly
- Quality Testing (and community) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- ADMIN: Recent outages J C Lawrence
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Adam Martin
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Ian Collyer
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Dave Rickey
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Eli Stevens
- Statistics Adam Martin
- Statistics Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Statistics John Buehler
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Travis Casey