October 2001
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- Lum the Mad is closing--sort of Koster, Raph
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Eli Stevens
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Joe Andrieu
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Matt Mihaly
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Sellers, Mike
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Vincent Archer
- contract games/markets (was: Request for ideas) Bruce Mitchener
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Phil O'Donnell
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Dan MacDonald
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Robin Lee Powell
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Justin Rogers
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Adam Martin
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Frank Crowell
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) John Hopson
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Dave Rickey
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Matt Mihaly
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) rayzam
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Freeman, Jeff
- State of the RP: Verant's attempt at a RP Server Eric Rhea
- New MMP Networking Architecture Lee Sheldon
- New MMP Networking Architecture Adam Martin
- New MMP Networking Architecture Bruce Mitchener
- New MMP Networking Architecture Ling Lo
- New MMP Networking Architecture Norman Nunley, Jr.
- Mucking about in time Eli Stevens
- Mucking about in time Travis Casey
- Mucking about in time Adam Martin
- Mucking about in time John Robert Arras
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Ian Collyer
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Matt Mihaly
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Robin Lee Powell
- Pueblo still kicking Jon Lambert
- FWD: Call for papers: AAAI symposium on AI and Interactive Entertainment Robert Zubek
- Game Theory Introduction Ling Lo
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #438 - 22 msgs Phil O'Donnell
- Uniqueness of Games Adam Martin
- Uniqueness of Games Ling Lo
- Psychology & Player Motivation (was Geometric Content Generation) Sasha Hart
- Simulation, just how much? (was: Uniqueness of Games) Derek Licciardi
- Laws of Competition Matt Mihaly
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Dave Rickey
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Dave Rickey
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted Amanda Walker
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Ben Greear
- UDP Revisted amanda@alfar.com
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted David H. Loeser Jr.
- UDP Revisted Adam Martin
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Kwon Ekstrom
- UDP Revisted Bruce Mitchener
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Bruce Mitchener
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Brian Hook
- Procedural content generation John Buehler
- Procedural content generation Brian Hook
- Procedural content generation John Buehler
- Procedural content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Procedural content generation lhulbert@hotmail.com
- Procedural content generation Travis Nixon
- Procedural content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Procedural content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Freeman, Jeff
- Procedural content generation Matt Mihaly
- Procedural content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation, Christopher Allen
- Simulation, Travis Casey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Kennerly
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Robin Lee Powell
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Brian Hook
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Vincent Archer
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Derek Licciardi
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dan Burke
- Simulation, Adam Martin
- UDP Revisited Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisited Brian Hook
- UDP Revisited Mats Lidstrom
- UDP Revisited Jeremy Gaffney
- Simulation Revisited Dave Rickey
- TCP Vegas Adam Martin
- Procedural content generation, randomness Adam Martin
- Procedural content generation, randomness Brian Hook
- Content authorship Adam Martin
- Content authorship Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Content authorship Travis Casey
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Eli Stevens
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Dave Rickey
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Robin Lee Powell
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Brian Hook
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Neufeld, Don
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Brian Hook
- DAoC dev team Dave Rickey
- SSL vs. SASL (was: UDP Revisted) Bruce Mitchener
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #445 - 27 msgs Paul Schwanz
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #445 - 27 msgs Travis Nixon
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Freeman, Jeff
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Koster, Raph
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Koster, Raph
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law Jon Lambert
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Madman Across the Water
- Proposed Law Travis Nixon
- Proposed Law Mark Eaton
- Proposed Law Sami Kosonen
- Proposed Law Madman Across the Water
- Proposed Law Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
- Proposed Law Dan Burke
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Ian Collyer
- Proposed Law Matthew Estes
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Adam Martin
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Adam Martin
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing John Buehler
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Nathan F. Yospe
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Koster, Raph
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Derek Licciardi
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Jeff Cole
- Quality Testing Robin Lee Powell
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing J C Lawrence
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Paul Dahlke
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Players Controlling Monsters rayzam
- High Level Architecture Adam Martin
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Dave Rickey
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Amanda Walker
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Bobby Martin
- Networking architecture overview Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Connection Stats Ben Tolputt
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #443 - 12 msgs Dr. Cat
- Fourteen forms of fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Fourteen forms of fun rayzam
- Fourteen forms of fun Sasha Hart
- Fourteen forms of fun Jon Lambert
- Fourteen forms of fun David H. Loeser Jr.
- Fourteen forms of fun Matt Mihaly
- Fourteen forms of fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Incorporating Plot/Backstory/Scenario Design Tools Nathan F. Yospe
- Extreme Programing Ling Lo
- DAoC dev team Lars Duening
- Documentation Adam Martin
- Documentation Brian Hook
- English grammar thoughts Par Winzell
- English grammar thoughts Kylotan
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Jasper McChesney
- English grammar thoughts Marian Griffith
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Jasper McChesney
- English grammar thoughts bruce@puremagic.com
- English grammar thoughts Marian Griffith
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Robert Zubek
- English grammar thoughts Robert Zubek
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Chris Gray
- English grammar thoughts Jon Leonard
- ADMIN: The code documenting/commenting thread J C Lawrence
- Players Controlling Monsters David H. Loeser Jr.
- Players Controlling Monsters Brian Hook
- Players Controlling Monsters John Buehler
- Expectations of in-game reality Matt Mihaly
- Expectations of in-game reality Freeman, Jeff
- Expectations of in-game reality J C Lawrence
- Expectations of in-game reality Freeman, Jeff
- Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Expectations of in-game reality Lars Duening
- Expectations of in-game reality Marian Griffith
- Expectations of in-game reality Derek Licciardi
- Expectations of in-game reality Lars Duening
- Expectations of in-game reality Paul Schwanz
- Expectations of in-game reality Nip
- Expectations of in-game reality Ian Collyer
- Expectations of in-game reality Adam Martin
- Expectations of in-game reality Michael Tresca
- Expectations of in-game reality J C Lawrence
- Expectations of in-game reality Matt Mihaly
- Expectations of in-game reality Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Expectations of in-game reality Eli Stevens
- Expectations of in-game reality Marian Griffith
- Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Expectations of in-game reality Sami Kosonen
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:21:34 -0400
Lee Sheldon <linearno@gte.net> wrote:
> From: J C Lawrence
> You win, JC.
<bow>
> Yours was the only response from three lists that I felt the need
> to print out and study.
Mind mentioning the other lists?
> Yours is also the only response from this list from someone also
> not represented on another, and I find that somewhat surprising.
I can't quite parse that. On another list?
> Yep, this is mostly due to the fact that NPCs are viewed as
> objects that perform functions, and who just happen to not be
> shaped like accordians or pencils.
Yup, thus my deconstructed comment.
>> I like a fifth category:
>> 4) Incidental outgrowth
> Now that I've trivialized them sufficiently, let me say that I
> whole-heartedly agree with your observation, if not your
> conclusions.
Excellent. (I'm much more interested in productive reaction than
agreement)
>> Is there an NPC anywhere which can be even remotely compared or
>> contrasted functionally with Alice's Father William?
> No, however we often don't have the luxury of populating worlds
> entirely with these characters.
Which doesn't really suit the question. Creating a Father William
is non-trivial. Its safe to assume with cost and time to market
constraints that such attempts would be limited. The critical point
to me is not that there are no MUDs which are entirely NPC populated
with Father William analogues, but that there are no MUDs which
contain anything close to a Father William analogue. This suggests
that not only is the attempt not being made, but that the value of
the attempt is not realised (or considered valuable).
I suspect that the reason is in the second camp.
In my original reply there was a fairly long section which was later
deleted as I didn't have the time to do it justice (leaving a post I
already felt was excessively weak in its last paragraphs) centered
on the analysis of MUDs in terms of control and definition of
interested vs interesting and their interplay and reversal between
the MUD and player, and how NPCs could produce both story perception
and non-retrospective story telling in players.
I'll have to write that out in full some time. I get enough
challenges on not detailing my assumptions or the thought
processes that got me to a particular point.
The core of my contention is that speakers are of necessity
interested and listeners are explicitly interesting (to the speaker
-- they "attract" communication). Think of it in terms of a clown
on stage vs his audience and it becomes quite clear.
A problem I see is that unlike fiction, which has firmly resolved
the interested/interesting dichotomy by using the interest of the
author to evolve interest in the reader ("Hey, come look at this,
its really interesting. Come with me and see this? Yeah, I don't
know about that either.") MUDs are stuck halfway between poor
burlesque productions (all razzle and no meat -- "interesting" thru
glitter) and attempting to be interested (to prompt the player to be
interesting and thus originate action/communication) thru goal
proposal and plot syncopation (player fills in the gaps).
The current scene is about the initial grab and take-up values (to
use Marketing terms). Wham them with pretty images, get them to
buy the box, and then try and figure out ways to make it sticky --
typically thru puerile expansion as its cheap and well proven (its
no accident that Pamela Anderson sells videos). And that's not
even counting the commercial games.
I don't find that either interesting or promising for the field. I
also don't find the current model of games/worlds with expected
product lives measured in low single digit years interesting. We're
still looking at MUDs as products instead of services and
relationships. (Technically we're not ready to produce such, but
that doesn't mean there isn't value in trying)
cf Idoru.
Once a MUD is a long lived service the definition and role of NPCs
can have much larger, and more incestuous scope.
> And I for one see no reason why the Cheshire Cat couldn't dispense
> little pills that shrink and grow you, or was that the
> Hooka-Smoking Caterpillar?
It was the latter. And yes, there's no reason to not have
cross-over between the categories (its a cheap form of complexity
and thus richness).
>> I like NPCs as opaque, inscrutable, and purposed. That doesn't
>> necessarily mean they are super-AI driven, but that they are
>> neither poor reflections of the players, or poor props for
>> players, but can credibly be viewed as having a discrete
>> existence. I dream of AliceInWonderland-like NPCs. They're not
>> typical even among themselves, they're relatively uncommon,
>> they're not world or player reflections, they behave according to
>> internal logics which are only partially determinable and
>> fractionally visible but which are also readily apparent as being
>> present, and they don't ego stroke.
> I would love to see these (more of these?) in a world. I also
> think a world populated solely by them would look a lot like Pi,
> and give players similar symptoms to Pi's lead character.
One of the challenges is to keep such incidentals both humanly and
intellectually friendly. To paraphrase, they have to be huggable.
Its easy to make incidental NPC which are so convoluted or
contradictory to typical player values that they are almost
antagonistic to player interest. Critical to Father William, the
Walrus, the Caterpillar, the Cheshire Cat etc are the fact that they
are friendly, familiar, easily grasped and easily intellectually
befriended images.
We're all familiar with the icons of crotchety old men. Father
William builds on and extends that. Yes, its partially picaresque
as you note -- its already proved a successful recipe else where in
the book -- but there are other models used as well. The Queen is
hardly picaresque other than as an antagonist for Alice, and yet
builds on the same friendly backdrop.
>> Of course from a functional definition, what do such NPCs offer?
>> They offer a chance for the game to speak, for it to beckon and
>> say to the player, "Come over here, this is interesting, it will
>> reward your interest, have a look," and for it to remain
>> mysterious without being crass. Which is perhaps my largest
>> complaint on NPCs to date; They've been so excessively
>> deconstructed that all that's left are pure functional entities
>> wearing incongruously frilly skins and affectations.
> Here we are both back on the same wavelength again. The entire
> thrust of this portion of my tutorial is to encourage looking at
> NPCs in ways that may help to make them into something more.
<nod>
>> How about inscrutable not-quite-deterministic NPCs?
> How about just not all of them?
Hehn.
I've long been tempted to just remove/banish NPCs entirely as a
failed model. Ultimately MUDs are about communication and
specifically, inter-human communication. Sure, there are filters
and abstractions and even time lapses (consider the human
communication between the game designers and the players via the
game implementation), but in the end the entire perceived value is
that there is communication, that mutual understanding is reached,
and that the quality of that communication is high enough to be or
to approach "art".
NPCs tend to break that. They are not only machines, they are
obvious machines that can't actually be communicated with, not in
any sense of achieving mutual understanding. They can only have
their buttons pushed in rigidly deterministic fashions along
pre-defined other-intentioned goal-lines (the goal is originated by
another, not the player, tho the player may agree to it). Hardly
exciting. Hardly more interesting than a door handle on someone
else's door.
I don't find talking to doors, mail boxes, or cars rewarding and I
find "talking" to NPCs in games even less so, especially when that
NPC exposes interfaces which mock humanity via speech patterns. Am
I the only one who played things like Galactic Civilisations
(Stardock) and found the text spat back by the various opponents
both distracting and unappealing? The mumble words, posturing and
adjectival overload were just annoying. I kept wanting a mode for,
"Tell me yes, no, or how much in no more words than that, and then
shut up."
Cruel mockeries of sapience.
>> Or, more recently, how about NPCs ala the Vorlon Kosh?
> I had to look that reference up. Sorry, some small and ancient
> personal baggage with J. Michael doesn't allow me the ability to
> respond favorably to such references. But I expect I see the
> point.
I'm not a B5 fan either, tho for rather more literary reasons I
suspect. (I just don't consider it very good or admirable SF) I
figured Kosh as the likely most widely recognised enigmatic yet
obviously purposed character in popular media, as well as one which
is regularly (and poorly) aped. Current American mass media is not
keen on the sorts of sustained mysteries that real enigmatism
requires.
--
J C Lawrence
---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh?
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. - Respecting NPCs Sami Kosonen
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs Matthew Estes
- Respecting NPCs Chris Gray
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Freeman, Jeff
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Freeman, Jeff
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Respecting NPCs rayzam
- Respecting NPCs Joe Andrieu
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Joe Andrieu
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs T.A.J.BARTON
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Madman Across the Water
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs John Buehler
- Respecting NPCs lazarus@ourplace.org
- Respecting NPCs Colin Coghill
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Phillip Lenhardt
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Norman Nunley, Jr.
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Brian Hook
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs Matthew D. Fuller
- Respecting NPCs Timothy Dang
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- TECH : RMI (was UDP Revisted) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH : RMI (was UDP Revisted) Bobby Martin
- Chatbots Adam Martin
- TECH: UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- The function of NPCs in novels versus MUDs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- RE: Koster, Raph
- RE: Joe Andrieu
- RE: Marian Griffith
- RE: gamaiun@yahoo.com
- RE: Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Violence Matt Mihaly
- Quality Testing (and community) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- ADMIN: Recent outages J C Lawrence
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Adam Martin
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Ian Collyer
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Dave Rickey
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Eli Stevens
- Statistics Adam Martin
- Statistics Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Statistics John Buehler
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Travis Casey