October 2001
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- Lum the Mad is closing--sort of Koster, Raph
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Eli Stevens
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Joe Andrieu
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Matt Mihaly
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Sellers, Mike
- Questing (was: Request for ideas) Vincent Archer
- contract games/markets (was: Request for ideas) Bruce Mitchener
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Phil O'Donnell
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Dan MacDonald
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Robin Lee Powell
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Justin Rogers
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Adam Martin
- DEV: Peer-to-Peer MUD Frank Crowell
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) John Hopson
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Dave Rickey
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Matt Mihaly
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Psychology and game design (Was Geometric content generation) rayzam
- in-game vs web-based boards (was: Geometric content generation) Freeman, Jeff
- State of the RP: Verant's attempt at a RP Server Eric Rhea
- New MMP Networking Architecture Lee Sheldon
- New MMP Networking Architecture Adam Martin
- New MMP Networking Architecture Bruce Mitchener
- New MMP Networking Architecture Ling Lo
- New MMP Networking Architecture Norman Nunley, Jr.
- Mucking about in time Eli Stevens
- Mucking about in time Travis Casey
- Mucking about in time Adam Martin
- Mucking about in time John Robert Arras
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Ian Collyer
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Matt Mihaly
- Many MUDs in one? (was: Geometric content generation) Robin Lee Powell
- Pueblo still kicking Jon Lambert
- FWD: Call for papers: AAAI symposium on AI and Interactive Entertainment Robert Zubek
- Game Theory Introduction Ling Lo
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #438 - 22 msgs Phil O'Donnell
- Uniqueness of Games Adam Martin
- Uniqueness of Games Ling Lo
- Psychology & Player Motivation (was Geometric Content Generation) Sasha Hart
- Simulation, just how much? (was: Uniqueness of Games) Derek Licciardi
- Laws of Competition Matt Mihaly
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Dave Rickey
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Dave Rickey
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted Amanda Walker
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Ben Greear
- UDP Revisted amanda@alfar.com
- UDP Revisted Brian Hook
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisted Travis Nixon
- UDP Revisted David H. Loeser Jr.
- UDP Revisted Adam Martin
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Kwon Ekstrom
- UDP Revisted Bruce Mitchener
- UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- UDP Revisted Bruce Mitchener
- UDP Revisted Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Brian Hook
- Procedural content generation John Buehler
- Procedural content generation Brian Hook
- Procedural content generation John Buehler
- Procedural content generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Procedural content generation lhulbert@hotmail.com
- Procedural content generation Travis Nixon
- Procedural content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Procedural content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Procedural content generation Freeman, Jeff
- Procedural content generation Matt Mihaly
- Procedural content generation Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Simulation, Christopher Allen
- Simulation, Travis Casey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Kennerly
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Robin Lee Powell
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Brian Hook
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Vincent Archer
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Derek Licciardi
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) John Buehler
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dave Rickey
- MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC) Dan Burke
- Simulation, Adam Martin
- UDP Revisited Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- UDP Revisited Brian Hook
- UDP Revisited Mats Lidstrom
- UDP Revisited Jeremy Gaffney
- Simulation Revisited Dave Rickey
- TCP Vegas Adam Martin
- Procedural content generation, randomness Adam Martin
- Procedural content generation, randomness Brian Hook
- Content authorship Adam Martin
- Content authorship Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Content authorship Travis Casey
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Eli Stevens
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Dave Rickey
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Robin Lee Powell
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Brian Hook
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Neufeld, Don
- DAoC dev team (was: MMORPG Comparison (UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC)) Brian Hook
- DAoC dev team Dave Rickey
- SSL vs. SASL (was: UDP Revisted) Bruce Mitchener
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #445 - 27 msgs Paul Schwanz
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #445 - 27 msgs Travis Nixon
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Freeman, Jeff
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Koster, Raph
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Koster, Raph
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law Jon Lambert
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Madman Across the Water
- Proposed Law Travis Nixon
- Proposed Law Mark Eaton
- Proposed Law Sami Kosonen
- Proposed Law Madman Across the Water
- Proposed Law Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
- Proposed Law Dan Burke
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Proposed Law Ian Collyer
- Proposed Law Matthew Estes
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Proposed Law John Buehler
- Proposed Law Adam Martin
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Adam Martin
- Proposed Law Matt Mihaly
- Proposed Law Paul Schwanz
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing John Buehler
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Nathan F. Yospe
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Koster, Raph
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Derek Licciardi
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Jeff Cole
- Quality Testing Robin Lee Powell
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing J C Lawrence
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Michael Tresca
- Quality Testing Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Quality Testing Paul Dahlke
- Quality Testing Dave Rickey
- Players Controlling Monsters rayzam
- High Level Architecture Adam Martin
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Dave Rickey
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Amanda Walker
- Networking architecture overview Brian Hook
- Networking architecture overview Bobby Martin
- Networking architecture overview Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Connection Stats Ben Tolputt
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #443 - 12 msgs Dr. Cat
- Fourteen forms of fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Fourteen forms of fun rayzam
- Fourteen forms of fun Sasha Hart
- Fourteen forms of fun Jon Lambert
- Fourteen forms of fun David H. Loeser Jr.
- Fourteen forms of fun Matt Mihaly
- Fourteen forms of fun Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Incorporating Plot/Backstory/Scenario Design Tools Nathan F. Yospe
- Extreme Programing Ling Lo
- DAoC dev team Lars Duening
- Documentation Adam Martin
- Documentation Brian Hook
- English grammar thoughts Par Winzell
- English grammar thoughts Kylotan
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Jasper McChesney
- English grammar thoughts Marian Griffith
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Jasper McChesney
- English grammar thoughts bruce@puremagic.com
- English grammar thoughts Marian Griffith
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
- English grammar thoughts Robert Zubek
- English grammar thoughts Robert Zubek
- English grammar thoughts Travis Casey
On Friday 19 October 2001 10:29, Par Winzell wrote:
> So, first, what I think I know: in English, the direct object is
> the answer to the question 'What did you put? wave? fill? nod?'
> and thus invariant under word-order juggling -- in
> 'wave my sword at the sky'
> and
> 'wave at the sky with my sword'
> the direct object is the sword in both cases. If this were true,
> it'd mean that direct objects can have prepositions in front of
> them, which I had previously thought they could not.
This is all correct, as far as I've been able to determine.
(A quick note here: as far as I've been able to find out reading up
on grammar the last couple of days, if a verb takes a direct object,
it *must* be able to take it without a preposition. Thus, "the sky"
cannot be the direct object of "wave", since "wave the sky" makes no
sense.)
> The other object is easier -- I'm going to call it 'indirect' even
> in those cases where apparantly it might more correctly be
> referred to as 'object of the preposition'.
The "indirect object" is supposed to be the object (in the
grammatical sense, that is) which is indirectly affected by the
action of an action (or technically a "transitive") verb. It may
*also* be the object of a preposition at the same time.
A few people have spoken up here to say that they don't think an
object of a preposition can also be a direct object or indirect
object at the same time. I disagree. I've been doing some digging
on sites that explain English grammar to try to find references, and
I've found a few:
"It is possible for a sentence containing an indirect object to
be rewritten by placing a preposition before the indirect
object. When this is done, the original indirect object can be
regarded either as the indirect object of the verb, or as the
object of the preposition.
For example, the sentence
We gave the child a toy,
can be rewritten as follows:
We gave a toy to the child.
In the rewritten sentence, child can be regarded either as the
indirect object of the verb gave, or as the object of the
preposition to."
(http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/durrus/153/gramch11.html)
Further down on the same page:
"A few English verbs, such as to describe, to distribute, to
explain and to say, can take an indirect object only when the
indirect object is preceded by a preposition. In the following
examples, the direct objects are printed in bold type, and the
indirect objects are underlined. e.g.
He described his experiences to the reporters.
They distributed the leaflets to their friends.
We explained the situation to the participants.
She said something to her teacher."
On another page:
"Direct object. The direct object is the person or thing that
is affected by the action of the verb.
I borrowed some money.
We have just ordered a new printer.
Indirect object. The indirect object is the receiver of the
action. Sometimes the indirect object contains to or for.
I gave the parcel to John.
Erica will lend me some money tomorrow."
(http://www.hio.ft.hanze.nl/thar/granalys.htm)
I haven't found anything that definitely says that a direct object
can have a preposition, but I don't see any logical reason why it
couldn't, and I haven't found anything that says one *can't* have a
preposition either. :-/
> Next, I believe the following configuration parameters would
> specify a verb's expressive possibilities completely:
> Evoke: Forbid/Allow/Require
> Direct Object: Forbid/Allow/Require
> Direct Preposition: Forbid/Allow/Require
What's "Direct Preposition" supposed to be? This isn't too clear...
> Indirect Object: Forbid/Allow/Require
> [ I think there's always a preposition before the direct object ]
Nope... there's not always a preposition before either the direct or
the indirect object. Consider, for example:
"Give Joe the book."
This has both a direct object (the book) and an indirect object
(Joe), but no prepositions at all.
All verbs which can take an IO without a preposition require the IO
to come before the DO in the sentence in such a case.
> List of Direct Object Prepositions: [list]
> List of Indirect Object Prepositions: [list]
> Does this rhyme with anybody elses design?
I started to use a design almost exactly like this once -- verbs
could have direct and indirect objects, and know what to do with
them. The verb could tell the parser what preposition(s) it
expected to come before a direct or indirect object. Ultimately,
though, I had to give it up, because there were too many cases that
it couldn't handle properly. Consider, for example:
put the book in the bag on the table
This one can't be solved at a purely grammatical level -- it
could mean "put (the book) in (the bag on the table)", but it
could also mean "put (the book in the bag) on (the table)".
look at the bag
look in the bag
look on the bag
look under the bag
"The bag" is the direct object of all of these -- but each
means something different. You could solve this by handling
"look at", "look in", etc. as all being different verbs, but
IMHO it makes more sense to allow the verb to do something
different depending on what preposition is used. That's
especially true in this case, since all of these would likely
share a great deal of code.
drop the ball in the bag
This could have "the ball" as a direct object and "the bag" as
an indirect object, or it could have the single direct object
"the ball in the bag". Again, this one can't be done purely
through grammar.
kiss mary on the cheek
You could consider "the cheek" to be the direct object here and
"mary" to be the indirect object, but that's not likely to work
very well. The simplest thing here would be to consider "mary"
to be the sole object of the sentence, and "on the cheek" to be
a modifying phrase indicating how one is going to kiss Mary.
kill the orc with my sword
"The orc" is the direct object here, since it is the thing
being killed. "My sword" would be considered a prepositional
object in English. (Some languages actually have an
"instrumental case" which indicates that an object is the
instrument of a verb. Modern English does not, and therefore
always uses a preposition to do this.)
Because of these sorts of things, I ultimately gave up trying to use
a system to figure out direct objects and indirect objects, and
instead used a system where I gave a set of patterns for each verb.
E.g.:
give
give <LIVING OBJECT> <OBJECTS>
give <OBJECTS> to <LIVING OBJECT>
put
put <OBJECTS> <POSITIONAL PREPOSITION> <OBJECT>
drop
drop <OBJECTS> <POSITIONAL PREPOSITION> <OBJECT>
drop <OBJECTS>
get
get <OBJECTS>
say
say <STRING> to <LIVING OBJECT>
say <STRING>
kill
kill <LIVING OBJECT> with <OBJECT>
kill <LIVING OBJECT>
look
look at <OBJECT>
look for <OBJECT>
look <POSITIONAL PREPOSITION> <OBJECT>
look <DIRECTION>
look <STRING>
look around
look
The phrase for an <OBJECT> could include a description of its
position: that is, "the sword in the box" could be an <OBJECT>, for
example. A few special "objects" that always existed were defined
in the parser -- "the floor", "the ground", and so on. Also, "from"
was defined to be a special preposition, which would act as the
"default preposition" of a container -- thus, "get sword from table"
would be considered the same as "get sword on table", and "get sword
from box" would be considered the same as "get sword in box". (At
least, if I remember right... don't remember if I ever got to
implementing that last bit, or still just had "from" matching any
preposition.)
> Finally, does anybody know what the relationship is between the
> notions of on one hand direct and indirect objects and the object
> of the preposition, and on the other hand noun cases like
> nominative, accusative, dative, etc?
If you're going to be looking for writing on English grammar, try to
find stuff written by linguists, rather than by grammarians or
English teachers. Linguists focus on *descriptive* grammar, which
attempts to describe the language as it is used; grammarians and
English teachers tend to focus on *prescriptive* grammar, which
attempts to set rules for how the language *should* be used.
In searching, I found:
http://www.public.asu.edu/~gelderen/314text/toc.htm
which seems to be looking at English from a descriptive grammar
point of view.
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) - English grammar thoughts Chris Gray
- English grammar thoughts Jon Leonard
- ADMIN: The code documenting/commenting thread J C Lawrence
- Players Controlling Monsters David H. Loeser Jr.
- Players Controlling Monsters Brian Hook
- Players Controlling Monsters John Buehler
- Expectations of in-game reality Matt Mihaly
- Expectations of in-game reality Freeman, Jeff
- Expectations of in-game reality J C Lawrence
- Expectations of in-game reality Freeman, Jeff
- Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Expectations of in-game reality Lars Duening
- Expectations of in-game reality Marian Griffith
- Expectations of in-game reality Derek Licciardi
- Expectations of in-game reality Lars Duening
- Expectations of in-game reality Paul Schwanz
- Expectations of in-game reality Nip
- Expectations of in-game reality Ian Collyer
- Expectations of in-game reality Adam Martin
- Expectations of in-game reality Michael Tresca
- Expectations of in-game reality J C Lawrence
- Expectations of in-game reality Matt Mihaly
- Expectations of in-game reality Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Expectations of in-game reality Eli Stevens
- Expectations of in-game reality Marian Griffith
- Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Expectations of in-game reality Sami Kosonen
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Sami Kosonen
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs Matthew Estes
- Respecting NPCs Chris Gray
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Freeman, Jeff
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Freeman, Jeff
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Respecting NPCs rayzam
- Respecting NPCs Joe Andrieu
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Joe Andrieu
- Respecting NPCs Michael Tresca
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Lee Sheldon
- Respecting NPCs T.A.J.BARTON
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Adam Martin
- Respecting NPCs Madman Across the Water
- Respecting NPCs Travis Nixon
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs John Buehler
- Respecting NPCs lazarus@ourplace.org
- Respecting NPCs Colin Coghill
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Phillip Lenhardt
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs Bruce Mitchener
- Respecting NPCs Norman Nunley, Jr.
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs Brian Hook
- Respecting NPCs J C Lawrence
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- Respecting NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Respecting NPCs Matthew D. Fuller
- Respecting NPCs Timothy Dang
- Respecting NPCs gamaiun@yahoo.com
- TECH : RMI (was UDP Revisted) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH : RMI (was UDP Revisted) Bobby Martin
- Chatbots Adam Martin
- TECH: UDP Revisted Bobby Martin
- The function of NPCs in novels versus MUDs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- RE: Koster, Raph
- RE: Joe Andrieu
- RE: Marian Griffith
- RE: gamaiun@yahoo.com
- RE: Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Violence Matt Mihaly
- Quality Testing (and community) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- ADMIN: Recent outages J C Lawrence
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Adam Martin
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Ian Collyer
- [ECOSYSTEMS] Fishing in the real world Dave Rickey
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Eli Stevens
- Statistics Adam Martin
- Statistics Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Statistics John Buehler
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Ben Chambers
- Statistics Travis Casey