September 2000
- Avault article: The End of the Smurfs? Zak Jarvis
- End of volunteers? Peter
- End of volunteers? Greg Underwood
- End of volunteers? Peter
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Lovecraft
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? F. Randall Farmer
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? John Buehler
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Dave Rickey
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Jeff Freeman
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? John Buehler
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? David Frank
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Matthew Mihaly
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Greg Underwood
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Greg Underwood
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Greg Underwood
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Matthew Mihaly
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Greg Underwood
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Matthew Mihaly
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? David H. Loeser Jr
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Josh Olson
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Jeff Freeman
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Josh Olson
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Jeff Freeman
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Zak Jarvis
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Matthew Mihaly
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Zak Jarvis
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madman Across the Water
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Dave Rickey
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Josh Olson
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Matthew Mihaly
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Dave Rickey
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
Dave Rickey wrote:
> From: Brian 'Psychochild' Green <brian@psychochild.org>
> >Now for the real rant portion of this post.
[snip]
> Hey, hey, back off here. That was a very specific response to the
> contention of "if the volunteers went away, they'd just have to hire
> people." If they go away, the companies *can't* just hire people, not on
> anywhere near the same scale.
Heh, that venom wasn't entirely meant for you. "They won't make money"
a fairly common cry from some of the stuff I've been reading. The way
you put it is much better.
> [...]and lower their expectations, or else they'll have to be prepared
> to double their subscription fees.
Hmm. Perhaps.
> >(Admittedly, given the wages paid in the industry, some of us do/did
> >give away part of our lives, but it at least paid the rent and bought
> >the Top Ramen.)
>
> That's about all it does. I could triple my salary tomorrow on any of
> several standing job offers to go back to web server programming, with a
> little hunting I could make twice *that*.
I'm lucky, I signed up as a programmer. That meant I merely doubled my
salary when I went outside the industry. ;)
> And development houses *don't*
> discharge people for incredibly petty reasons? Read Fat-Babies much?
Ah, and this reveals the little man behind the curtain of my arguments.
The way companies treat volunteers is another symptom of what I consider
the industry's general lack of concern for people working for them. The
same bullshit used to fuel the debates about exploiting free volunteers
is also shoveled into the engines that explain why developers get paid
so low. "We don't make much money." "If we had to pay more, we'd never
turn a profit!" "If we don't turn a profit, games wouldn't get made."
"It's too risky to pay more." "Listen, lackey, do what you're told and
be glad we're letting you play in our sandbox in the first place." Any
of that sound familiar?
[snip]
> >It's sad that
> >the selfish exploitation by some of the larger companies could cause no
> >end to problems for the rest of us.
>
> Sorry, but I think that's your bitterness talking.
Yeah, but that's beside the point. :)
> Most of the people
> doing this do it because they *like* it. If they have enhanced powers it's
> because they *asked* for those powers so they could do it better,
Now, I didn't say volunteers were bad. Volunteers are a great thing!
They made lots of stuff on Meridian possible that we couldn't have done
otherwise. I think we should encourage volunteers.
> if they
> have restrictions on how they can treat the customer and use their powers
> it's because the company can't endorse their efforts and grant them powers
> and *not* excercise control over what they do "on duty".
But, I cannot agree with this. Companies should either treat people:
a) like volunteers. Give them the power to do what will help the game,
then get out of the way. If they are harming the game, step in and
chastise them like you would any player that is ruining the experience
for others.
b) like employees. Set restrictions on what they can do to your hearts
content. Just don't forget to pay them.
> In a MUD, you can hand someone wiz powers and if they don't actually do
> anything constructive with them, you don't *care*. In an MMOG, you can't
> afford to lose track of what people are actually doing with those powers.
Recording what they do is fine. "I'm going to spawn monsters tomorrow
for an event. I figure I'll do about 10 orcs." "Sounds great!"
But, when you mandate what they do, then I think there's problems.
"Here's 10 orcs. Spawn them tomorrow at an event. If you don't, we'll
take away your powers." See the difference? One is empowering a
player, one is extracting free labor from the player.
> I want to give these people *more* power. I want to give them the keys
> to the engines of creation, make it *their* world. You're telling me I
> can't do that without paying them?
Certainly not! Hopefully you've read some of what I've contributed to
the field; I'm quite in favor of giving players more options. If you
want to give them the keys, have at it! But, when you give them keys
and say, "Uh, build me a castle over here, and a series of ice caves up
here," then you are exploiting labor. On the other hand, "Don't make
anything that looks like a giant penis," is covering your ass.
Hopefully people can see the difference here? It's subtle at times, but
important, IMNSHO.
> That being said, I would have to agree in principle that there is a
> tendency in some quarters to think of the volunteer programs as an
> unreliable employee pool. I can't get into specifics without getting myself
> sued, though.
Heh. That's exactly what I want to avoid. Not just for legal reasons,
not necessarily for moral reasons, but for reasons of health for the
industry. I'm sure some of the sharper developers out there can see
what I am getting at. ;)
> I think the way out of this is to integrate the "players helping
> players" system back into the game. But that's going to be *very* tricky.
And that's exactly what I would like to encourage, too. Even Madrona
Tree said the same thing in the post I originally replied to. But,
there's a difference between someone with experience helping a newbie
(that happens all the time), and a company telling a player, "I'll give
you a free account if you agree to become a verbal piñata!"
--
"And I now wait / to shake the hand of fate...." -"Defender", Manowar
Brian Green, brian@psychochild.org aka Psychochild
|\ _,,,---,,_ *=* Morpheus, my kitten, says "Hi!" *=*
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ "They're not bugs, they're 'place-
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' holders for code that works.'"
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) - Andrew Kirmse, Meridian 59 creator - Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? David H. Loeser Jr
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Batir
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? David H. Loeser Jr
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Dave Rickey
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Corey Crawford
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Dave Rickey
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Erik Jarvi
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Erik Jarvi
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Shawn L Johnston
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Josh Olson
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? David H. Loeser Jr
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Mud Imp
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Greg Underwood
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? david.l.smith@home.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Zak Jarvis
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Christopher Allen
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Mud Imp
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #216 - 11 msgs Greg Miller
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #216 - 11 msgs Jon Lambert
- graphical arrogance Matthew Mihaly
- graphical arrogance Koster, Raph
- graphical arrogance Vincent Archer
- graphical arrogance Zak Jarvis
- graphical arrogance Matthew Mihaly
- Skotos Beta Test Signup Christopher Allen
- Side note (was: Criminalize Community Volunteers?) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Shadowbane Matthew Mihaly
- Game Balance and Mortal Complaints SmokEater952@aol.com
- Game Balance and Mortal Complaints David Bennett
- Game Balance and Mortal Complaints Lovecraft
- Game Balance and Mortal Complaints Patrick Dughi
- Game Balance and Mortal Complaints Val Trullinger
- The Solution to Criminalizing Community Volunteers? Jon Morrow
- The Solution to Criminalizing Community Volunteers? nbossett@herbert.com
- The Solution to Criminalizing Community Volunteers? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Dave Rickey
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Koster, Raph
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Vincent Archer
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Dave Rickey
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Corey Crawford
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? gmiller@classic-games.com
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Koster, Raph
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Travis Casey
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jeff Freeman
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Tess Lowe
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jeff Freeman
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Andy
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Timothy Dang
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Taylor
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Nathan Clemons
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Madman Across the Water
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Corey Crawford
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Joe Andrieu
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Madman Across the Water
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Joe Andrieu
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Madman Across the Water
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Madman Across the Water
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Joe Andrieu
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jon Lambert
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Peter
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jon Lambert
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Koster, Raph
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? yvesk@brutele.be
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Dan Merillat
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jeff Freeman
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Dave Rickey
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jeff Freeman
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Eli Stevens
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Eli Stevens
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? John Buehler
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? John Buehler
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? John Buehler
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? John Buehler
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? John Buehler
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? rayzam
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Luc Van den Borre
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Dave Rickey
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Michael Tresca
- MUD Coding Staff Structure David Bennett
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Erik Jarvi
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Marc Bowden
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Malcolm Tester
- MUD Coding Staff Structure David Bennett
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Daniel Podlejski
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Lars Duening
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Steven Kaskinen
- MUD Coding Staff Structure gmiller@classic-games.com
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Taylor
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Coding Staff Structure rayzam
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Michael Tresca
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Dave Rickey
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Vincent Archer
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Malcolm Tester
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Koster, Raph
- OT: short abscence Greg Underwood
- MUD Licensing UCMM Administration
- question Matthew Mihaly
- Nomenclature (was: MUD Coding Staff Structure) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Nomenclature (was: MUD Coding Staff Structure) Dave Rickey
- Nomenclature (was: MUD Coding Staff Structure) Steven Kaskinen
- Nomenclature (was: MUD Coding Staff Structure) Michael Tresca
- Conditioned reinforcers: Getting players to do things for free John Hopson
- Society Scaling Brad Wyble
- MUDs vs. MMUDs (was MUD Coding Staff Structure) Steven Kaskinen
- MUDs vs. MMUDs (was MUD Coding Staff Structure) Steven Kaskinen
- MUDs vs. MMUDs (was MUD Coding Staff Structure) Matthew Mihaly
- MUDs vs. MMUDs Steven Kaskinen
- MUDs vs. MMUDs Steven Kaskinen
- Mud-dev FAQ 2 Marian Griffith
- startup script for you Matthew Mihaly
- Bad Name Lists Christopher Allen
- Bad Name Lists Josh Rollyson
- Bad Name Lists William Katzell
- Bad Name Lists Michael Tresca
- Bad Name Lists Eli Stevens
- Bad Name Lists Matthew Mihaly
- Bad Name Lists Mordengaard
- Help and Reference Systems Study Jon Morrow
- Help and Reference Systems Study Peter
- Help and Reference Systems Study Colin Coghill
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Koster, Raph
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Jeff Freeman
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Dave Rickey
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Josh Olson
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Dave Rickey
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Travis Nixon
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Dave Rickey
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Jeff Freeman
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Dave Rickey
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Norman Short
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's KevinL
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Norman Short
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Jeff Freeman
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Dave Rickey
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Matthew Mihaly
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Geoffrey MacDougall
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Corey Crawford
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Myschyf
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Nathan F. Yospe
- Lawsuit vs. EA/Origin Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Lawsuit vs. EA/Origin Koster, Raph
- Lawsuit vs. EA/Origin Dave Rickey
- DoS and muds Josh Rollyson
- DoS and muds Patrick Dughi
- DoS and muds Chris Jacobson
- DoS and muds Shawn L Johnston
- Interesting Page on Magic Chris Lloyd
- paying volunteers Matthew Mihaly
- paying volunteers Patrick Dughi
- paying volunteers Matthew Mihaly
- paying volunteers Nicholas Daley
- paying volunteers Chris Lloyd
- paying volunteers Matthew Mihaly
- paying volunteers Chris Lloyd
- paying volunteers Geoffrey MacDougall
- paying volunteers Jeff Freeman
- paying volunteers Sellers, Michael
- paying volunteers Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- paying volunteers the_logos@www.achaea.com
- (no subject) Ian Hess
- (no subject) Matthew Mihaly
- Chicagoland MUD-Dev Dinner Erik Jarvi
- StoryTelling Devices: "Magic Book" Eric Rhea
- StoryTelling Devices: "Magic Book" Madrona Tree
- StoryTelling Devices: "Magic Book" Nathan F. Yospe
- Portable Device Integration Eric Rhea
- Pricing structures and selling characters and items Myschyf
- Pricing structures and selling characters and items Matthew Mihaly
- Pricing structures and selling characters and items Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Interview with Vault Koster, Raph
- [rpg-create] Combat Abstractions (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] Combat Abstractions (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] Combat Abstractions (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] HP triangle (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] HP triangle (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] HP triangle (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] HP triangle (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] combat thoughts (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] Combat System Checklist (fwd) J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: Volunteer vs paid employee thread J C Lawrence
- OT: qnx released Steve Houchard
- customer service Matthew Mihaly
- customer service Corey Crawford
- Squeezing the ink from "Magic Book" Eric Rhea
- Importance of User Documentation Jon Morrow
- Importance of User Documentation Sanvean
- Importance of User Documentation Alex
- Importance of User Documentation Dave Kennerly
- Importance of User Documentation Jon Morrow
- Importance of User Documentation Sanvean
- Importance of User Documentation Richard Tew
- Importance of User Documentation Ben
- Importance of User Documentation Sanvean
- Importance of User Documentation rayzam
- Importance of User Documentation Jon Morrow
- Fw: Importance of User Documentation Stephen Newby
- Fw: Importance of User Documentation Inq Admin
- Fw: Importance of User Documentation David Bennett
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Jon Morrow
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Bruce
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Willowreed@aol.com
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation John Hopson
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Marc Bowden
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Richard Tew
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Ryan P.
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Marc Bowden
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Richard Tew
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Melinda Davison
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation KevinL
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Dave Rickey
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation KevinL
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Colin Coghill
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Richard Tew
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Michael Tresca