September 2000
- Avault article: The End of the Smurfs? Zak Jarvis
- End of volunteers? Peter
- End of volunteers? Greg Underwood
- End of volunteers? Peter
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Lovecraft
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? F. Randall Farmer
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? John Buehler
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Dave Rickey
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Jeff Freeman
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? John Buehler
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? David Frank
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Matthew Mihaly
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Greg Underwood
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Greg Underwood
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Greg Underwood
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Matthew Mihaly
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Greg Underwood
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Matthew Mihaly
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? David H. Loeser Jr
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Josh Olson
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Jeff Freeman
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Josh Olson
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Jeff Freeman
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Zak Jarvis
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Matthew Mihaly
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Zak Jarvis
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madman Across the Water
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Dave Rickey
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Josh Olson
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Matthew Mihaly
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
A loaded discussion. I've had a few thoughts about this for a while,
just haven't gotten around to writing an rant/essay about it.
Madrona Tree wrote:
> If they are working as an agent for the corporation, they are working for
> the corporation. If they are not, then they're working for the community.
In other words, the line between volunteer and unpaid employee is the
main question here. Volunteers are good, unpaid employees are bad (and
possibly illegal).
Given my experiences on Meridian 59, I think that "volunteers" are
generally not treated as volunteers but as unpaid employees. I think
the original concept has been corrupted; people in the past were willing
to dedicate their time to improve the online environment they
frequented. This was was partially fueled out of self-interest, because
their efforts kept the environment running better; newbies were given
information, assholes were booted, and people were helped.
Yet, somewhere along the line, this changed. The volunteers were still
volunteering, but companies began to rely on these people instead of
just working with them. They were organized, and restrictions put on
them. When you are told not to upset other players (customers), that
means you are more of an employee than an independent volunteer.
[Player run helpers example snipped]
> I think anyone who is given powers above and beyond a 'regular player' in
> order to solve customer problems (I've fallen and I can't get up!) and/or
> adding content (decorating player taverns) or being the 'first line of
> defense' in deciding who should get punished and when and how much are
> working for the company.
I disagree. If a player is an adept storyteller and wants to tell
stories in the context of the game, I see nothing wrong with giving him
or her the ability to tell those stories. Powers such as being able to
rename items, spawn monsters, etc. However, the line seems to be
crossed when you give them those powers, then expect them to spend X
hours per week online, running a minimum of Y events. In other words,
you are giving the powers with the expectation of a return on
investment, IE wages paid for expected work. This sounds like terms of
employment to me.
Now for the real rant portion of this post. I find it disgusting that
so many people seem willing to defend this practice by saying "The money
isn't there" or that "Online RPGs just wouldn't be made" if companies
couldn't exploit free employees. What kind of defense is that? That's
like saying, "McDonalds can't stay in business if we have to pay our
employees actual wages. Can we just give them a few burgers at the end
of the shift?" How far would that fly? It's worse in our case, because
commercial MUDs are primarily a service, not a product; and we have come
to expect "volunteers" to help us provide that service.
How many of us professional developers would "volunteer" our time to
make a graphical MUD for a large publisher that intended to make money
from it? What if there were no chance for you to realize any profit
from it, even though the publisher is making a sizable amount of money?
How about if you could be removed from the game for any reason at all,
even that the publisher just felt you had worked too long on it?
(Admittedly, given the wages paid in the industry, some of us do/did
give away part of our lives, but it at least paid the rent and bought
the Top Ramen.)
Unfortunately, the distinction between volunteer and unpaid employee is
often fuzzy at best. The law has a nasty tendency to run roughshod over
subtleties like this, especially when money is involved. It's sad that
the selfish exploitation by some of the larger companies could cause no
end to problems for the rest of us.
(I've got more to post, but want to keep the threads straight for those
interested in that sort of thing).
--
"And I now wait / to shake the hand of fate...." -"Defender", Manowar
Brian Green, brian@psychochild.org aka Psychochild
|\ _,,,---,,_ *=* Morpheus, my kitten, says "Hi!" *=*
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ "They're not bugs, they're 'place-
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' holders for code that works.'"
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) - Andrew Kirmse, Meridian 59 creator - Criminalize Community Volunteers? Dave Rickey
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? David H. Loeser Jr
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Batir
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? David H. Loeser Jr
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Dave Rickey
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Madrona Tree
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Corey Crawford
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Dave Rickey
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Erik Jarvi
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Erik Jarvi
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Shawn L Johnston
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Josh Olson
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? David H. Loeser Jr
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Willowreed@aol.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Mud Imp
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Greg Underwood
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? david.l.smith@home.com
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Koster, Raph
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Zak Jarvis
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Christopher Allen
- Criminalize Community Volunteers? Mud Imp
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #216 - 11 msgs Greg Miller
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #216 - 11 msgs Jon Lambert
- graphical arrogance Matthew Mihaly
- graphical arrogance Koster, Raph
- graphical arrogance Vincent Archer
- graphical arrogance Zak Jarvis
- graphical arrogance Matthew Mihaly
- Skotos Beta Test Signup Christopher Allen
- Side note (was: Criminalize Community Volunteers?) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Shadowbane Matthew Mihaly
- Game Balance and Mortal Complaints SmokEater952@aol.com
- Game Balance and Mortal Complaints David Bennett
- Game Balance and Mortal Complaints Lovecraft
- Game Balance and Mortal Complaints Patrick Dughi
- Game Balance and Mortal Complaints Val Trullinger
- The Solution to Criminalizing Community Volunteers? Jon Morrow
- The Solution to Criminalizing Community Volunteers? nbossett@herbert.com
- The Solution to Criminalizing Community Volunteers? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Dave Rickey
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Koster, Raph
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Vincent Archer
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Dave Rickey
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Corey Crawford
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? gmiller@classic-games.com
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Koster, Raph
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Travis Casey
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jeff Freeman
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Tess Lowe
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jeff Freeman
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Andy
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Timothy Dang
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Taylor
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Nathan Clemons
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Madman Across the Water
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Corey Crawford
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Joe Andrieu
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Madman Across the Water
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Joe Andrieu
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Madman Across the Water
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Madman Across the Water
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Joe Andrieu
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jon Lambert
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Peter
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jon Lambert
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Koster, Raph
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? yvesk@brutele.be
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Dan Merillat
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jeff Freeman
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Dave Rickey
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Jeff Freeman
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Eli Stevens
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Eli Stevens
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? John Buehler
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? John Buehler
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? John Buehler
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? John Buehler
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? John Buehler
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? rayzam
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Matthew Mihaly
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Luc Van den Borre
- Are eBay sales more than just a fad? Dave Rickey
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Michael Tresca
- MUD Coding Staff Structure David Bennett
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Erik Jarvi
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Marc Bowden
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Malcolm Tester
- MUD Coding Staff Structure David Bennett
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Daniel Podlejski
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Lars Duening
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Steven Kaskinen
- MUD Coding Staff Structure gmiller@classic-games.com
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Taylor
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Coding Staff Structure rayzam
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Michael Tresca
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Dave Rickey
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Vincent Archer
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Malcolm Tester
- MUD Coding Staff Structure Koster, Raph
- OT: short abscence Greg Underwood
- MUD Licensing UCMM Administration
- question Matthew Mihaly
- Nomenclature (was: MUD Coding Staff Structure) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Nomenclature (was: MUD Coding Staff Structure) Dave Rickey
- Nomenclature (was: MUD Coding Staff Structure) Steven Kaskinen
- Nomenclature (was: MUD Coding Staff Structure) Michael Tresca
- Conditioned reinforcers: Getting players to do things for free John Hopson
- Society Scaling Brad Wyble
- MUDs vs. MMUDs (was MUD Coding Staff Structure) Steven Kaskinen
- MUDs vs. MMUDs (was MUD Coding Staff Structure) Steven Kaskinen
- MUDs vs. MMUDs (was MUD Coding Staff Structure) Matthew Mihaly
- MUDs vs. MMUDs Steven Kaskinen
- MUDs vs. MMUDs Steven Kaskinen
- Mud-dev FAQ 2 Marian Griffith
- startup script for you Matthew Mihaly
- Bad Name Lists Christopher Allen
- Bad Name Lists Josh Rollyson
- Bad Name Lists William Katzell
- Bad Name Lists Michael Tresca
- Bad Name Lists Eli Stevens
- Bad Name Lists Matthew Mihaly
- Bad Name Lists Mordengaard
- Help and Reference Systems Study Jon Morrow
- Help and Reference Systems Study Peter
- Help and Reference Systems Study Colin Coghill
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Koster, Raph
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Jeff Freeman
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Dave Rickey
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Josh Olson
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Dave Rickey
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Travis Nixon
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Dave Rickey
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Jeff Freeman
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Dave Rickey
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Norman Short
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's KevinL
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Norman Short
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Jeff Freeman
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Dave Rickey
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Matthew Mihaly
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Geoffrey MacDougall
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Corey Crawford
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Myschyf
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- FW: [uodevlist] OT - Lawsuit on Lum's Nathan F. Yospe
- Lawsuit vs. EA/Origin Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Lawsuit vs. EA/Origin Koster, Raph
- Lawsuit vs. EA/Origin Dave Rickey
- DoS and muds Josh Rollyson
- DoS and muds Patrick Dughi
- DoS and muds Chris Jacobson
- DoS and muds Shawn L Johnston
- Interesting Page on Magic Chris Lloyd
- paying volunteers Matthew Mihaly
- paying volunteers Patrick Dughi
- paying volunteers Matthew Mihaly
- paying volunteers Nicholas Daley
- paying volunteers Chris Lloyd
- paying volunteers Matthew Mihaly
- paying volunteers Chris Lloyd
- paying volunteers Geoffrey MacDougall
- paying volunteers Jeff Freeman
- paying volunteers Sellers, Michael
- paying volunteers Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- paying volunteers the_logos@www.achaea.com
- (no subject) Ian Hess
- (no subject) Matthew Mihaly
- Chicagoland MUD-Dev Dinner Erik Jarvi
- StoryTelling Devices: "Magic Book" Eric Rhea
- StoryTelling Devices: "Magic Book" Madrona Tree
- StoryTelling Devices: "Magic Book" Nathan F. Yospe
- Portable Device Integration Eric Rhea
- Pricing structures and selling characters and items Myschyf
- Pricing structures and selling characters and items Matthew Mihaly
- Pricing structures and selling characters and items Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Interview with Vault Koster, Raph
- [rpg-create] Combat Abstractions (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] Combat Abstractions (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] Combat Abstractions (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] HP triangle (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] HP triangle (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] HP triangle (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] HP triangle (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] combat thoughts (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [rpg-create] Combat System Checklist (fwd) J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: Volunteer vs paid employee thread J C Lawrence
- OT: qnx released Steve Houchard
- customer service Matthew Mihaly
- customer service Corey Crawford
- Squeezing the ink from "Magic Book" Eric Rhea
- Importance of User Documentation Jon Morrow
- Importance of User Documentation Sanvean
- Importance of User Documentation Alex
- Importance of User Documentation Dave Kennerly
- Importance of User Documentation Jon Morrow
- Importance of User Documentation Sanvean
- Importance of User Documentation Richard Tew
- Importance of User Documentation Ben
- Importance of User Documentation Sanvean
- Importance of User Documentation rayzam
- Importance of User Documentation Jon Morrow
- Fw: Importance of User Documentation Stephen Newby
- Fw: Importance of User Documentation Inq Admin
- Fw: Importance of User Documentation David Bennett
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Jon Morrow
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Bruce
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Willowreed@aol.com
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation John Hopson
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Marc Bowden
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Richard Tew
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Ryan P.
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Marc Bowden
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Richard Tew
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Melinda Davison
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation KevinL
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Dave Rickey
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation KevinL
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Colin Coghill
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Richard Tew
- Convincing Players to Read Documentation Michael Tresca