July 2000
- Scalable Network I/O in Linux J C Lawrence
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players adam@treyarch.com
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Patrick Dughi
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Scatter
- curses and grief players Marc Bowden
- curses and grief players David Bennett
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Patrick Dughi
- curses and grief players Marc Bowden
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Patrick Dughi
- curses and grief players J C Lawrence
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players stoddart@slip.net
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Patrick Dughi
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Matthew Mihaly
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players jolson@micron.net
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Josh Olson
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Jon A. Lambert
- curses and grief players John Buehler
- curses and grief players Patrick Dughi
- curses and grief players Zak Jarvis
- curses and grief players John Buehler
- curses and grief players Jon A. Lambert
- curses and grief players John Buehler
- curses and grief players Malcolm Valentine
- curses and grief players John Buehler
- curses and grief players Patrick Dughi
- curses and grief players John Buehler
- curses and grief players J C Lawrence
- curses and grief players John Buehler
- curses and grief players J C Lawrence
- curses and grief players Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- curses and grief players Travis Nixon
- curses and grief players J C Lawrence
- curses and grief players John Buehler
- curses and grief players Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- curses and grief players Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- curses and grief players Marc Bowden
- curses and grief players Matthew Mihaly
- curses and grief players J C Lawrence
- curses and grief players John Buehler
- curses and grief players Dave Rickey
- curses and grief players Jon A. Lambert
- curses and grief players John Buehler
- curses and grief players Nicholas Daley
- curses and grief players J C Lawrence
- curses and grief players Val Trullinger
- curses and grief players David Bennett
- curses and grief players Timothy Dang
- curses and grief players KevinL
- curses and grief players Raph Koster
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players KevinL
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Nicholas Daley
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- curses and grief players KevinL
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players J C Lawrence
- curses and grief players Jon A. Lambert
- curses and grief players Marian Griffith
- curses and grief players J C Lawrence
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Jon A. Lambert
- curses and grief players Greg Miller
- curses and grief players Andy
- curses and grief players Timothy Dang
- Fantasy clichés (was: Acting casual about casual gamers) Brian Green
- Fantasy clichés (was: Acting casual about casualgamers) Raph Koster
- Fantasy cliché s (was: Acting casual about casualgamers) Travis Nixon
- Fantasy cliché s (was: Acting casual about casualgamers) Dave Rickey
- Fantasy clichés (was: Acting cas ual aboutcasualgamers) S. Patrick Gallaty
- Combat systems, the good the bad and the ugly Malcolm Valentine
- Combat systems, the good the bad and the ugly Travis Casey
- "Mud-school", character-gen and role-playing Tim Vernum
- "Mud-school", character-gen and role-playing Raph Koster
- "Mud-school", character-gen and role-playing Travis Casey
- "Mud-school", character-gen and role-playing adam@treyarch.com
- "Mud-school", character-gen and role-playing Greg Miller
- "Mud-school", character-gen and role-playing Travis Casey
- "Mud-school", character-gen and role-playing Nameless Solforge
- "Mud-school", character-gen and role-playing Chris Turner
- "Mud-school", character-gen and role-playing Christopher Allen
- Fantasy clichés Michael Tresca
- Fantasy clichés Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Fantasy clichés Zak Jarvis
- Online gaming conference Matthew Mihaly
- Online gaming conference J C Lawrence
- Online gaming conference Milne, Alistair
- A new combat system Dragat123@aol.com
- A new combat system Thinus Barnard
- A new combat system Ryan P.
- A new combat system Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- A new combat system Ryan P.
- A new combat system Russo, Joe
- A new combat system Ryan P.
- A new combat system Travis Casey
- A new combat system adam@treyarch.com
- A new combat system Travis Casey
- A new combat system J C Lawrence
- A new combat system Travis Casey
- A new combat system J C Lawrence
- A new combat system John Bertoglio
- A new combat system Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- A new combat system J C Lawrence
- A new combat system adam@treyarch.com
- A new combat system Ben
- Fantasy clich=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=s Ryan Schotte
- Fantasy clich s J C Lawrence
- Fantasy clich s Raph Koster
- Number Economy Michael Tresca
- Number Economy Philip Loguinov, Draymoor
- Number Economy Matthew Mihaly
- Fantasy clich=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=s Ryan Schotte
- Corruption of the game, profit and ethics S. Patrick Gallaty
- Corruption of the game, profit and ethics John Bertoglio
- Corruption of the game, profit and ethics Chris Jacobson
- Corruption of the game, profit and ethics S. Patrick Gallaty
- Corruption of the game, profit and ethics Matthew Mihaly
- Corruption of the game, profit and ethics Raph Koster
- Corruption of the game, profit and ethics Matthew Mihaly
- Corruption of the game, profit and ethics Greg Miller
- Why Socializers are our Comrades (long) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Why Socializers are our Comrades (long) Sam Axon
- Why Socializers are our Comrades (long) Raph Koster
- Harry Potter J C Lawrence
- Harry Potter John Bertoglio
- Harry Potter Todd McKimmey
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- Harry Potter Raph Koster
- Harry Potter J C Lawrence
- Harry Potter Michael Tresca
- [Meta] Harry Potter David Bennett
- Fantasy clich=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=s (was: Acting casual about casualgamers) Ananda Dawnsinger
- MUDs, eBay Farmers in The Economist Daniel James
- Introduction System Nathan Clemons
- Introduction System Nathan Clemons
- Introduction System J C Lawrence
- Introduction System S. Patrick Gallaty
- Introduction System seanl@literati.org
- Introduction System J C Lawrence
- Introduction System adam@treyarch.com
- Introduction System Bruce
- Introduction System J C Lawrence
- Introduction System Eli Stevens
- Introduction System J C Lawrence
- Introduction System Bruce
- Introduction System J C Lawrence
- Introduction System Tim Vernum
- Introduction System Dan Merillat
- Introduction System J C Lawrence
- Introduction System razor
- Introduction System Travis Nixon
- Introduction System Travis Nixon
- Introduction System J C Lawrence
- Introduction System Dan Shiovitz
- Introduction System Ryan P.
- Introduction System J C Lawrence
- Introduction System adam@treyarch.com
- Introduction System Colin Coghill
- Introduction System birgit.schulte@philips.com
- Introduction System J C Lawrence
- Introduction System birgit.schulte@philips.com
- Introduction System Michael Hohensee
- Introduction System Chris Turner
- Introduction System Eli Stevens
- Introduction System Mordengaard
- Introduction System Jon A. Lambert
- Introduction System Jon Callas
- curses and grief players - dark ages game solutions S. Patrick Gallaty
- Fantasy clichés (was: Acting casual aboutcasualgamers) adam@treyarch.com
- Getting stuck (was Fantasy clichés) Greg Miller
- Getting stuck (was Fantasy clichés) Travis Casey
- Getting stuck (was Fantasy clichés) Greg Miller
- Getting stuck (was Fantasy clichés) Travis Casey
- ADMIN: SQL troubles appear to be over. J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev request rejected Patrick Dughi
- Spherical World Design Philip Loguinov, Draymoor
- Spherical World Design Michelle Thompson
- Spherical World Design Jon A. Lambert
- Spherical World Design J C Lawrence
- Spherical World Design Jon A. Lambert
- Spherical World Design Christopher Allen
- Spherical World Design Patrick Dughi
- Modelling combat Vladimir Prelovac
- Modelling combat Travis Casey
Friday, July 14, 2000, 12:16:06 PM, Vladimir Prelovac <tomcat@galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu> wrote:
Various random comments...
> It is interesting to speak about combat systems because no one knows for
> sure what is the formula that "nature" uses in real combat to check if one
> hits another. I think it might be intersting to discuss.
If you're interested in game systems, you might want to check out the
rpg-create list on egroups. It's a mailing list for RPG designers to
talk to each other. The focus is mainly on paper RPGs, and some
people on there don't like computer RPGs, but if you just talk about
systems and don't mention that they'll be implemented on a computer,
no one will probably even notice.
> For example if you look at two very powerful and skillful characters engaged
> in combat, it may last for very long time with both of them dodging and
> parrying other person's blows until they both fall to the ground exhausted
> (a combat in "Red Sonia" movie betwee Arnold and the girl comes to my mind).
Comment: movie combats are not a good place to look to see how real
combat works. Now, for a mud, you're probably more interested in
making it "seem right" than *be* right, so movie combats can be good
examples, but I just wanted to point that out, since a paragraph
before you were talking about how real combat works.
> My idea was that two equally skillful fighters would hit each other 50% of
> the time. That is a starting fact that I based my model on. Equally skilled
> fighters are for example two total newbies or two most powerful players in
> the mud (of lets say same level)
> so this is how I did check_hit(attacker, defender) function
> ATTACK= SKILL + BONUSES
[snip lots]
> Then the crucial part comes.
> I felt like that in combat you can not MISS your opponent. This was very big
> step to make but after some thinking (and some simulations of combat with my
> friends - that was fun) we agreed. So you always want to hit your opponent,
> and you cant not miss them, but rather they will avoid your attack with
> dodge, parry or block.
There are ways to miss an opponent in combat without the opponent
actively defending. Here's a few:
- Misjudgement. In real combat, one of the most important things to
do is to maintain proper range. What this is depends on how much
reach each of you has, but in many cases you'll end up with a
situation where you have to step in to attack. Beginners sometimes
misjudge the range, and in doing so attack when they cannot
possibly hit their opponent. This happens because they're trying
to stay out of reach of a counterattack while attacking.
- Coincidence. Not all movement in combat is part of a defense.
Sometimes it simply happens that you attack just as your opponent
moves -- either to attack you, or to shift position, or for some
other reason.
- Accidental stop-hit. That is, you launch your attack, only to find
that your opponent attacks at the same time and is faster. This
can result in a double-hit, but it can also result in your missing.
- Distraction/interference. In a full melee environment, where you
are not fighting one-on-one, there's always a chance that something
someone else is doing will mess you up. This blends into the next
and final method...
- Bad luck. Sometimes things just happen, especially once you move
out of the controlled environment of a dojo. You step in to attack
and step in a woodchuck's hole. You swing and the tip of your
sword hits a nearby tree and sticks. Your opponent trips and your
thrust goes right over him. And so on.
Between two fighters in a controlled environment, when one can be sure
that the other fighter is not going to attack while you try to, it's
all but impossible to miss, yes; but how many mud fights take place
under such circumstances?
That's not to say that the chance of hitting should be very low --
against someone who's not defending, I'd say it's 90% or more. Just
that in a real environment, nothing is 100%.
One final note here: I'm assuming you're only talking about melee
attacks. Missile attacks are subject to a lot more variables. Try
throwing rocks at a telephone pole from 20 yards away and you'll see
that right away.
> So after attacker's bonuses are calulated a roll is made to randomly
> determine what kind of a blow was that - kind that is best dodged, parried
> or blocked. This maybe arguable, but this is a model and it is made to work
> in big numbers.
> there is 40% chance that the blow is of that kind that it would be best to
> dodge it.
> 35% is for parry, and 25% for block.
From what you give below, it seems that you're using "parry" to mean
"parry or block with a weapon" and "block" to mean "parry or block
with a shield". I'm proceeding on this assumption below.
(A couple of notes here: a "block" is generally taken to be a method
of stopping a blow by absorbing the full force of it -- this is best
done early in the attack before it has much force behind it. A
"parry" deflects a blow, applying force to redirect it to somewhere
other than the intended target. "Dodging" is moving yourself to avoid
a blow.
It is possible to parry or block with either either a shield or a
weapon -- shields can be used to deflect blows, and weapons to take
the force of a blow. It's also possible to parry or block *without* a
shield or a weapon, though it's often dangerous to do so against a
weapon. However, if you have good armor, you may be able to do an
"unarmed block" (or parry) against many weapons safely. For example,
in the Renaissance, rapier-and-glove was a style of combat -- the
glove being an armored glove that could be used to parry an opponent's
rapier, or even to grab it.
In reality, these three aren't solidly divided -- someone parrying a
blow will often move their body to take it out of the blow's new path,
and a counter may both deflect a blow somewhat and take some of its
force. Also, it's possible to subdivide "dodge" into a few different
categories.)
> These numbers are of course personal preference, and I "felt" them like
> those.
> DEFENSE = SKILL + BONUSES
> there is a dodge, parry and shiled skill. bonuses are similar to those
> already described. Note: if parry was chosen and defender had no weapon to
> parry that attack, he would try to alternatly dodge it, but would have a
> certain penalty. That apllies to shiled block as well. I also made some
> compensation to those percentages (40%, 35%, 25%), so if a character does
> not have a weapon or a shiled, I assume he would make such moves that most
> of the coming attacks would be of type dodge (for example those numbers
> would become 65%, 20%, 15)
You might want a sort of heirarchy -- if something comes out with
block being best, but the character doesn't have a shield, then he/she
can parry at a penalty. If he/she doesn't have a weapon, then he/she
can dodge at a greater penalty.
> SKILL varies from 0 - 100. bonuses may add another 100 or more.
> RESULT = ( (ATTACK - DEFENSE) + 100) / 2;
Another possible method would be to make it a skill vs. skill test.
I.e.:
ATTACK + roll vs. DEFENSE + roll
If the attacker's total is better, the attack succeeds. This gives a
50/50 split when ATTACK and DEFENSE are equal, and allows you to
manipulate how much of an advantage a point is. For example, if it's:
ATTACK + 1d4 vs. DFEENSE + 1d4
Then a 4-point advantage is decisive. However, if 1d100 is used
instead of 1d4, it takes a 100-point advantage to be decisive.
Yet another method would be to use the ratio:
Chance to hit = [(ATTACK / DEFENSE) / (ATTACK + DEFENSE)] * 100%
> lets take a look at this. When two newbies fight, their skill is more or
> less 0, their bonuses are also around 0 (considered two average humans for
> example).
> result = ((0 - 0) +100) / 2 = 50
> I got a 50 % chance of one hitting another. The chance stays the same given
> that ATTACK and DEFENSE are not much different. Should ATTACK go up a bit,
> or DEFENSE go down, chance for hitting raises, and other way around..
> I also put a 3% chance of making a certain miss, or incredibly well hit.
A common method in RPGs is to make how good a hit is (or how bad a
miss is) be tied into the margin of success/failure -- this is, how
much above or below the needed roll you were. This has a couple of
effects: First, it means that higher-skill attackers tend to do more
damage. Second, it helps reflect the fact that defenses are not
all-or-nothing: a dodge can make an attacker hit a less vital spot
instead of making him/her miss entirely, and the same with a parry. A
block may still let some damage through.
> So that is how done it. Any comments welcome.
My comments above are meant as mostly minor criticisms; you've got a
solid core idea there. Please consider the invitation to rpg-create;
if this is the sort of thing you enjoy thinking and writing about,
you'll fit right in there.
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) - Modelling combat adam@treyarch.com
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- fantasy cliches Travis Casey
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- Combat Systems Ben
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- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Ben
- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Travis Casey
- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Raph Koster
- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Patrick Dughi
- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Raph Koster
- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Patrick Dughi
- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Gabriel
- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Koster, Raph
- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Malcolm Valentine
- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Mordengaard
- Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game? Malcolm Valentine
- [rpg-create] Martial arts rules (fwd) J C Lawrence
- SQL and Muds Jeremy Noetzelman
- SQL and Muds J C Lawrence
- SQL and Muds Nathan Clemons
- [rpg-create] Maneuvers (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Memory, the Brain, and Dogma rayzam
- emlenmud Josh Rollyson
- emlenmud Greg Miller
- How to Hurt the Hackers: The Scoop on Internet Cheating and How You Can Combat It by Matt Pritchard J C Lawrence
- How to Hurt the Hackers: The Scoop on Internet Cheating and How You Can Combat It by Matt Pritchard Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- How to Hurt the Hackers: The Scoop on Internet Cheating and How You Can Combat It by Matt Pritchard Greg Underwood
- How to Hurt the Hackers: The Scoop on Internet Cheating and How You Can Combat It by Matt Pritchard Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Getting info from NPCs Dmitri Zagidulin
- Getting info from NPCs Josh Anderson
- Getting info from NPCs Patrick Dughi
- Getting info from NPCs Warren Powell
- Getting info from NPCs Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Getting info from NPCs Travis Casey
- Getting info from NPCs Lazarus
- Skill defaulting Ryan "BC|Uller" Myers
- Skill defaulting rayzam
- Skill defaulting Mordengaard
- Skill defaulting Ryan "BC|Uller" Myers
- Skill defaulting Marian Griffith
- Skill defaulting rayzam
- Roleplaying vs Immersion Miroslav Silovic
- Roleplaying vs Immersion Erik Jarvi
- Roleplaying vs Immersion Miroslav Silovic
- Roleplaying vs Immersion Matthew Mihaly
- Roleplaying vs Immersion Miroslav Silovic
- On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA Bruce
- On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA Greg Underwood
- On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA Bruce
- On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA J C Lawrence
- On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA KevinL
- On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA Patrick Dughi
- On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA KevinL
- On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA Bruce
- On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA Greg Underwood
- On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA J C Lawrence
- WorldForge Acorn demo 0.1 alpha released Alistair Riddoch
- Threading Models and Command Queues Ben
- Medievia advertises in Dragon magazine Charles Hughes
- MUD Wimping Michael Tresca
- MUD Wimping Dan Shiovitz
- MUD Wimping Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Wimping Michael Tresca
- MUD Wimping adam@treyarch.com
- MUD Wimping Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Wimping Raph Koster
- MUD Wimping adam@treyarch.com
- MUD Wimping Patrick Dughi
- MUD Wimping Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Wimping J C Lawrence
- MUD Wimping Lazarus
- MUD Wimping adam@treyarch.com
- MUD Wimping KevinL
- MUD Wimping Chris Turner
- MUD Wimping Koster, Raph
- MUD Wimping J C Lawrence
- MUD Wimping Matthew Mihaly
- MUD Wimping Matt Chatterley
- MUD Wimping Raph Koster
- MUD Wimping stoddart@slip.net
- Article: Constructive Politics in a MMORPGs (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
- Permadeath (was: Balance... RPG or Role-Playing Game?) Eli Stevens
- The Player Wimping Guidebook J C Lawrence
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Nathan Clemons
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook ROBERT MCCAULEY
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Val Trullinger
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Jeremy Noetzelman
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook adam@treyarch.com
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Malcolm Tester
- The Player Wimping Guidebook J C Lawrence
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook rayzam
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Raph Koster
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook J C Lawrence
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matt Chatterley
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Patrick Dughi
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Brian Vrolyk
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Warren Powell
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Marc Bowden
- The Player Wimping Guidebook rayzam
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Greg Underwood
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Greg Underwood
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Koster, Raph
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Jerry Hill
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matt Chatterley
- The Player Wimping Guidebook rayzam
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Raph Koster
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Michael Tresca
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Nathan Clemons
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matt Chatterley
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Raph Koster
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Zak Jarvis
- The Player Wimping Guidebook J C Lawrence
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Steven Wallace
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Koster, Raph
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Koster, Raph
- The Player Wimping Guidebook adam@treyarch.com
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Koster, Raph
- The Player Wimping Guidebook adam@treyarch.com
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Raph Koster
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matthew Mihaly
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Koster, Raph
- The Player Wimping Guidebook adam@treyarch.com
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Raph Koster
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Matt Chatterley
- The Player Wimping Guidebook Koster, Raph