June 2000
- Advancement considered harmful (long) [very short] Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Batir
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Richard Tew
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. AR Schleicher
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Christopher Allen
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Myschyf
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jon A. Lambert
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. PLAGNAL XAVIER
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Buehler
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Colin Coghill
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Hopson
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) Eli Stevens
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) rob@cs.nwu.edu
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Brian Green
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Sellers, Michael
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? Jon A. Lambert
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? J C Lawrence
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Entry and near-entry level jobs at Maxis Sellers, Michael
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Brian Green
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Wes Connell
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) AR Schleicher
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Charles Hughes
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Raph Koster
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Zak Jarvis
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) F. Randall Farmer
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) F. Randall Farmer
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Brian Green
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Miroslav Silovic
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Jon A. Lambert
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) John Buehler
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) adam@treyarch.com
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Par Winzell
- Of interest Jeff Freeman
- Of interest Dave Rickey
- Of interest Bruce
- Of interest Jeff Freeman
- Of interest AR Schleicher
- Intro Tamzen Cannoy
- Online actions and real-life religion Jason Spangler
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Brandon J. Rickman
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Angela Ferraiolo
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Marian Griffith
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Justin Rogers
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) J C Lawrence
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) adam@treyarch.com
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Wes Connell
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) J C Lawrence
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Jon A. Lambert
- Responsibility for users (was: Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) ) birgit.schulte@philips.com
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) Brian Green
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) Matthew Mihaly
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) J C Lawrence
- Backstories Chris Bunting
- Backstories J C Lawrence
- New poll J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) Matthew Mihaly
- Backstory (was New poll) Tess Lowe
- Backstory (was New poll) Matthew Mihaly
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Raph Koster
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Dave Rickey
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Marian Griffith
- Backstory (was New poll) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) Harrison Edwards
- Backstory (was New poll) rayzam
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- Little Touches (was Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly) Todd McKimmey
- backstory poll results Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll Eli Stevens
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- [Meta] New poll Tess Lowe
- [Meta] New poll Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll PLAGNAL XAVIER
- [Meta] New poll Wes Connell
- [Meta] New poll Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll Erik Jarvi
- [Meta] New poll adam@treyarch.com
- Backstory (was New poll) Raph Koster
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Drunk Speak was:Bay Area Press Wes Connell
- Backstory (was New poll) Wes Connell
- Our player's keepers? (long) Brian Green
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Erik Jarvi
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Lee Sheldon
- Our player's keepers? (long) F. Randall Farmer
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Raph Koster
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Jessica Mulligan
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Sellers, Michael
- The Virtues of Small Muds - was (Our player's keepers? ) Jon A. Lambert
- MudDev FAQ 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ 1 J C Lawrence
- MudDev FAQ 2 Marian Griffith
- MudDEV FAQ request Marian Griffith
- NWN model (was Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 20 00) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Yet more new polls J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #131 - 23 msgs Dr. Cat
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Brian Green
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 John Buehler
- Games vs. simulations Matthew Mihaly
- Games vs. simulations Charles Hughes
- Games vs. simulations Dmitri Zagidulin
- Games vs. simulations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Games vs. simulations adam@treyarch.com
- Games vs. simulations Brandon J. Rickman
- Games vs. simulations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations adam@treyarch.com
- Games vs. simulations Marc Bowden
- Games vs. simulations Patrick Dughi
- Games vs. simulations Bruce
- Games vs. simulations Richard Woolcock
- Games vs. simulations Matthew Mihaly
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations F. Randall Farmer
- Games vs. simulations Travis Casey
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations Travis Casey
- Games vs. simulations J C Lawrence
- Games vs. simulations Brad Roberts
- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
- FW: A question of message propagation Patrick Dughi
- FW: A question of message propagation Jon A. Lambert
- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
- FW: A question of message propagation Chris Jacobson
- FW: A question of message propagation Jon A. Lambert
- Lego bulk ordering J C Lawrence
- Lego bulk ordering Chris Gray
- Lego bulk ordering Jason Spangler
- Mailing list: IRead J C Lawrence
- FC: Americans ditching TV for online news, Pew Research survey says (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Meta: Events page and dinner picture galleries J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection Kyle Leithoff
- Remote client connection Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection John Buehler
- Remote client connection Lee Sheldon
- Remote client connection John Buehler
- Remote client connection Lurn@missing.domain
- Remote client connection Patrick Dughi
- Remote client connection Phillip Lenhardt
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:01:34 -0400 (EDT)
Paul Schwanz <- Enterprise Services <Paul.Schwanz@east.sun.com>> wrote:
> JC said:
>> I argue that one of the prime values in a MUD, and this is the
>> thing which elevats it in various essential fashions, is that the
>> player is continually confronted with the question, "What shall I
>> do now?" and there is nothing and nobody to tell him that answer
>> but him.
> Actually, I think that this question can be taken too far.
Of course. One of the other ends of the scale is the classic,
"Guess the verb," puzzle. Arguably, there must be mechanics and the
machanics must be known to the player, or the player must be
(correctly) certain that he can discover the mechanics with
reasonable (dilettante player) effort.
> There comes a point when I feel like I am entertaining myself and
> that's not necessarily what I'm looking for in a MUD.
Yup, that's our problem as game designers. We must either present
the player with a pre-canned game that he can co-opt, or we must
present him with enough game fragments that plug welle nough
together that he doesn't notice that he's doing all the heavy
lifting.
<ponder>
Actually I'd argue that one is the outgrowth of the other. We start
by giving the player a pre-canned game. Something he can understand
instanty and go and DO, with some success and some learning, in our
game. Barriers to entry, introductions, and all that rot. Then we
start going, "Okay, know you know about this place, and you have
some idea what's going on, what would you like to do?"
The transition between the two states can of course be quite
gradual, very abrupt, or in certain cases (this was one of the early
complaints about UO) the first stage can be (largely) missing.
ObNote: One of the basic functions of the PK wars on UO and the many
UO fan sites was to provide and define that early pre-canned
game/purpose/learning curve experience: "Hey, come be a PK'er!",
"Hey, come whack the PK'ers!", both dealt along with well documented
HOW-TOs and well in-game assisted (guilds etc) on how to achieve
those goals. The secondary advantage of the entire PK fracas being
instantly and natively familiar to the players via FPS just made it
all easier.
> I think that the designer should present the player with plenty of
> choices, but I also think that it is up to the designer to make
> sure that the choices are not too arbitrary. The game should not
> remain silent when I ask, "What shall I do now?" But neither
> should it scream back a single response.
I see this as part of the transition between the two states/stages
mentioned above.
> And I'd certainly like to see more flexibility in *how* I can go
> about reaching the goals which the game presents to me.
During the middle stages, yes, we're still in the process of
hand-holding, giving a partially canned experience, and of acting as
Disney-esque tour guides. Arguably, this is the basic function of
having the newbie levels on many GoP MUDs being protected from other
higher level players. You're still hand-holding and waiting for
them to learn the ropes. The problem is that there gets to be a
point where you as game designer are largely out of the picture in
terms of defining the game. You have succeeded: you are now
irrelevant -- the player is playing some other game inside your game
that is of his own devising.
At this point, WHY should the game either present or offer you
goals?
My basic argument is that presentation of goals to players (as
versues player derived and defined goals) is a pre-canned thing, and
is thus largely a learning curve lubrication. You offer the player
pre-canned goals and micro-games to play such that he learns and
grows into your game. The games, and the steps involved, can be big
or tiny, and they can be very obvious to the player (quests,
numbered lessons, traning areas, talking newbie swords, etc), or
quite hidden and implicit. This is not to say that these
lubricative steps are unimportant (without that learning curve you
have no players), just that the are transitional stages and needs to
be recongnised as such.
What this concentrates attention on is the post-game problem; one of
the basic problems of all advancement based games (and learning is a
form of advancement, even if usually not quantified). What does the
player do after he has maxxed, after he has learned your game? You
don't want the game to be over and him to move on to some other
game. You've managed to produce a well educated (in your game)
player. It seems a pity to waste that by throwing it away as almost
every other game out there does.
This is where the whole bit about expressive fertility comes in.
--
J C Lawrence Home: claw@kanga.nu
----------(*) Other: coder@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection Matthew Mihaly
- Remote client connection k.carter
- Remote client connection Raph Koster
- Remote client connection Erik Jarvi
- Remote client connection Richard Tew
- Remote client connection AR Schleicher
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Phillip Lenhardt
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Marian Griffith
- Bioware Chris Gray
- Bioware Raph Koster
- Meta: Regenning the list archives. J C Lawrence
- Commercial MUD developers destroy thinking! Brian Green
- Hello! Milne, Alistair
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Marian Griffith
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Mordengaard
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Josh Rollyson {dracus}
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Building On-Line 3D Worlds - Digital Actors/3D avatars Charles Hughes
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) Dmitri Zagidulin
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) adam@treyarch.com
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) Travis Casey
- Basic input techniques? Neil Edwards
- Basic input techniques? J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Brian Green
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Madrona Tree
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Madrona Tree
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers adam@treyarch.com
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Dan Shiovitz
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Spin
- Acting casual about casual gamers Jon Morrow
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers adam@treyarch.com
- Acting casual about casual gamers Raph Koster
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Michael Tresca
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Erik Jarvi
- Acting casual about casual gamers Malcolm Valentine
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Malcolm Valentine
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Michael Tresca
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Acting casual about casual gamers Chris Turner
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Jon A. Lambert
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Hunting mobs vs Economy (was Advancement considered harmful (long)) Jeremy Hovance
- using DB to store game state Eli Stevens
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- using DB to store game state Eli Stevens
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 J C Lawrence
- A Replacement for Telnet Phillip Lenhardt
- A Replacement for Telnet Justin Rogers
- C# vs. LPC Christopher Allen
- C# vs. LPC Travis Casey
- C# vs. LPC Felix A. Croes
- C# vs. LPC Travis Casey
- C# vs. LPC Owen
- C# vs. LPC J C Lawrence
- C# vs. LPC ashon@wsunix.wsu.edu
- Man Hours: (was Offline Persistence) Dmitri Zagidulin
- FW: [DGD]C# vs. LPC Christopher Allen
- Polling the users Jeff Freeman
- Collected comments on C# from comp.lang.python and the python mailing list. J C Lawrence
- Another Firstborn Falls: Meridian 59 Brian Green
- Reach out and bitch at someone Brian Green
- Reach out and bitch at someone David Bennett
- Reach out and bitch at someone Chris Jacobson
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone rayzam
- Reach out and bitch at someone David Bennett
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone Chris Jacobson
- Reach out and bitch at someone Jessica Mulligan
- Reach out and bitch at someone Dave Rickey
- Reach out and bitch at someone jolson@micron.net
- Reach out and bitch at someone Jack Doolan
- Reach out and bitch at someone Matthew Mihaly
- Reach out and bitch at someone Matthew Mihaly
- Reach out and bitch at someone Malcolm Valentine
- MUDLinux v0.5 J C Lawrence
- MUDLinux v0.5 David Wruck
- MUDLinux v0.5 Malcolm Valentine
- Maps and children's lit. (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Maps and children's lit. (fwd) Malcolm Valentine