June 2000
- Advancement considered harmful (long) [very short] Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Batir
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Richard Tew
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. AR Schleicher
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Christopher Allen
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Myschyf
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jon A. Lambert
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. PLAGNAL XAVIER
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Buehler
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Colin Coghill
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Hopson
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) Eli Stevens
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) rob@cs.nwu.edu
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Brian Green
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Sellers, Michael
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? Jon A. Lambert
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? J C Lawrence
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Entry and near-entry level jobs at Maxis Sellers, Michael
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Brian Green
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Wes Connell
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) AR Schleicher
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Charles Hughes
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Raph Koster
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Zak Jarvis
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) F. Randall Farmer
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) F. Randall Farmer
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Brian Green
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Miroslav Silovic
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Jon A. Lambert
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) John Buehler
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) adam@treyarch.com
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Par Winzell
- Of interest Jeff Freeman
- Of interest Dave Rickey
- Of interest Bruce
- Of interest Jeff Freeman
- Of interest AR Schleicher
- Intro Tamzen Cannoy
- Online actions and real-life religion Jason Spangler
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Brandon J. Rickman
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Angela Ferraiolo
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Marian Griffith
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Justin Rogers
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) J C Lawrence
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) adam@treyarch.com
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Wes Connell
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) J C Lawrence
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Jon A. Lambert
- Responsibility for users (was: Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) ) birgit.schulte@philips.com
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) Brian Green
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) Matthew Mihaly
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) J C Lawrence
- Backstories Chris Bunting
- Backstories J C Lawrence
- New poll J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) Matthew Mihaly
- Backstory (was New poll) Tess Lowe
- Backstory (was New poll) Matthew Mihaly
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Raph Koster
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Dave Rickey
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Marian Griffith
- Backstory (was New poll) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) Harrison Edwards
- Backstory (was New poll) rayzam
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- Little Touches (was Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly) Todd McKimmey
- backstory poll results Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll Eli Stevens
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- [Meta] New poll Tess Lowe
- [Meta] New poll Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll PLAGNAL XAVIER
- [Meta] New poll Wes Connell
- [Meta] New poll Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll Erik Jarvi
- [Meta] New poll adam@treyarch.com
- Backstory (was New poll) Raph Koster
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Drunk Speak was:Bay Area Press Wes Connell
- Backstory (was New poll) Wes Connell
- Our player's keepers? (long) Brian Green
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Erik Jarvi
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Lee Sheldon
- Our player's keepers? (long) F. Randall Farmer
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Raph Koster
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Jessica Mulligan
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Sellers, Michael
- The Virtues of Small Muds - was (Our player's keepers? ) Jon A. Lambert
- MudDev FAQ 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ 1 J C Lawrence
- MudDev FAQ 2 Marian Griffith
- MudDEV FAQ request Marian Griffith
- NWN model (was Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 20 00) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Yet more new polls J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #131 - 23 msgs Dr. Cat
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Brian Green
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 John Buehler
- Games vs. simulations Matthew Mihaly
- Games vs. simulations Charles Hughes
- Games vs. simulations Dmitri Zagidulin
- Games vs. simulations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Games vs. simulations adam@treyarch.com
- Games vs. simulations Brandon J. Rickman
- Games vs. simulations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations adam@treyarch.com
- Games vs. simulations Marc Bowden
- Games vs. simulations Patrick Dughi
- Games vs. simulations Bruce
- Games vs. simulations Richard Woolcock
- Games vs. simulations Matthew Mihaly
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations F. Randall Farmer
- Games vs. simulations Travis Casey
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations Travis Casey
- Games vs. simulations J C Lawrence
- Games vs. simulations Brad Roberts
- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
- FW: A question of message propagation Patrick Dughi
- FW: A question of message propagation Jon A. Lambert
- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
- FW: A question of message propagation Chris Jacobson
- FW: A question of message propagation Jon A. Lambert
- Lego bulk ordering J C Lawrence
- Lego bulk ordering Chris Gray
- Lego bulk ordering Jason Spangler
- Mailing list: IRead J C Lawrence
- FC: Americans ditching TV for online news, Pew Research survey says (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Meta: Events page and dinner picture galleries J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection Kyle Leithoff
- Remote client connection Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection John Buehler
- Remote client connection Lee Sheldon
- Remote client connection John Buehler
- Remote client connection Lurn@missing.domain
- Remote client connection Patrick Dughi
- Remote client connection Phillip Lenhardt
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:33:03 -0400
Phillip Lenhardt <philen@monkey.org> wrote:
> A multiple choice mud interface could be just the thing you need
> to help direct players to the meaningful choices presented by a
> situation instead of implicitly allowing them to do meaningless
> things.
What is the definition of "meaningful" in this context? Who defines
both the context and the definition? Is it the game designer, the
implementor, the player, or some other party?
Every player playing your game is playing a different game from
every other player playing your game. This is true for single
players games, and more particularly true of multiplayer games.
Heck, Raph has even collected a law on this point. As a game
designer or implementor you have absolutely no idea game your
players are actually playing. One thing you do know, with almost
perfect certainty, is that if they have been playing for long enough
to be more than comfortably familiar with your game is that they are
not playing the game as you designed it, but are playing a meta-game
which they devised.
Of late I've taken the habit of playing Quake CTF during long
software builds. Thing is, tho I'm playing on a CTF map (I only
play town2) with (presumably) CTF players, I don't play that game.
The game I'm playing is one of two:
-- As a sniper, how many single shot kills can I make in a row of
other players I am unable to actually see from my current position
(ie they are hidden by shadows or intevening objects). If any one
of my shots misses or doesn't kill, or if I kill a player I can see,
I lose my game and quit.
-- What is the minimum length of time required for me to get
either 3 or 10 frags wihout being killed myself.
I used to play the arcade game Tron a fair bit (now I play it under
Mame). I didn't play the intended game of knocking my opponent off
his platform. Instead I played the game of how long I could
possibly make a level last by shooting the opponent's frisbees
without knocking him off his platform. IIRC I once spent a very
enjoyable (and low scoring) hour getting up to level 3.
The mechanics of both Tron and Quake are extremely constrained so
there is little opportunity to create much in the way of meta games,
yet in both cases I no longer play the intended game in any way.
No consider a more flexibly mechaniced (if that's a word) world,
where the range of designed-for possible activities and purposes for
a player are much larger. Concomitantly, the range, ease, and I'd
argue probability of that player playing a meta game are much
larger.
One of the early problems or successes (depending on how you looked
at it) was players going and finding monsters, trapping them,
herding them back to their houses and the renting them out to other
players for sparring partners. That certainly was not an intended
player game. This was not a designed for game. It was not a
designed for mechanic. It was not a designed for activity, and its
effect on the game balance and the world's logical pattern were
unsubtle.
Conversely, it was an excellent demonstration of player ingenuity
and of the flexibility in UO's world implementation. It could be
considered a prime example of a manner in which players had proven
that the game world was really real in important fashions, and had
thus given them a means to invest themselves in the game world and
thus create anew it in their own fashion (ala nest building but on a
less homey scale).
Could any of this above really be accomplished on a multiple choice
system? Should it?
At an extreme, multiple choice systems define the game designer as
the prime viewpoint and the player as almost a passive theatre goer
who merely goes along for the scripted ride provided by the game
designer. Its a Disney-style amusement park where you sit safely
belted in your coach and watch the sets scroll past you. Why?
Because the game designer is the only one who has both the
opportunity and the means in multiple choice systems to define what
has meaning, and what is important to the player and his character.
The player has no ability to intervene, and say lead the
conversation with an NPC in another direction, or go do something
utterly irreverent that the game designer never bothered to think
of.
I argue that one of the prime values in a MUD, and this is the thing
which elevats it in various essential fashions, is that the player
is continually confronted with the question, "What shall I do now?"
and there is nothing and nobody to tell him that answer but him.
The player is the one who creates the game for himself. Not you,
not other players, not the game designer, not the implementors, not
the mass media, advertising agencies, or any other third party --
only the player. He may be influenced by all the aforementioned,
but in the end, its just him creating something that has meaning to
himself.
Consider the problem of the Stamp Collector (see the Laws and then
the List Archives). Such a player is very definitely playing a
game. He's just not necessarily playing the same game as anyone
else, or even a game that particularly relates (well) to any other
player's game (which doesn't necessarily reduce the significance of
his effect on other players), or any of the games which the game
designer had in mind for the system.
In the end the only important things are what go on inside your
player's heads, and then what they do because of that. More
importantly, it is your players, your arbitrary, capricious,
ingenious, sabotauging, crotchety, uncomprehending, annoying players
who define what actually is "meaningful".
After all, who cares if something is meaningful to you the game
designer if the players don't agree?
--
J C Lawrence Home: claw@kanga.nu
----------(*) Other: coder@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- - Remote client connection Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection Matthew Mihaly
- Remote client connection k.carter
- Remote client connection Raph Koster
- Remote client connection Erik Jarvi
- Remote client connection Richard Tew
- Remote client connection AR Schleicher
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Phillip Lenhardt
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Marian Griffith
- Bioware Chris Gray
- Bioware Raph Koster
- Meta: Regenning the list archives. J C Lawrence
- Commercial MUD developers destroy thinking! Brian Green
- Hello! Milne, Alistair
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Marian Griffith
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Mordengaard
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Josh Rollyson {dracus}
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Building On-Line 3D Worlds - Digital Actors/3D avatars Charles Hughes
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) Dmitri Zagidulin
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) adam@treyarch.com
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) Travis Casey
- Basic input techniques? Neil Edwards
- Basic input techniques? J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Brian Green
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Madrona Tree
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Madrona Tree
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers adam@treyarch.com
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Dan Shiovitz
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Spin
- Acting casual about casual gamers Jon Morrow
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers adam@treyarch.com
- Acting casual about casual gamers Raph Koster
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Michael Tresca
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Erik Jarvi
- Acting casual about casual gamers Malcolm Valentine
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Malcolm Valentine
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Michael Tresca
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Acting casual about casual gamers Chris Turner
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Jon A. Lambert
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Hunting mobs vs Economy (was Advancement considered harmful (long)) Jeremy Hovance
- using DB to store game state Eli Stevens
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- using DB to store game state Eli Stevens
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 J C Lawrence
- A Replacement for Telnet Phillip Lenhardt
- A Replacement for Telnet Justin Rogers
- C# vs. LPC Christopher Allen
- C# vs. LPC Travis Casey
- C# vs. LPC Felix A. Croes
- C# vs. LPC Travis Casey
- C# vs. LPC Owen
- C# vs. LPC J C Lawrence
- C# vs. LPC ashon@wsunix.wsu.edu
- Man Hours: (was Offline Persistence) Dmitri Zagidulin
- FW: [DGD]C# vs. LPC Christopher Allen
- Polling the users Jeff Freeman
- Collected comments on C# from comp.lang.python and the python mailing list. J C Lawrence
- Another Firstborn Falls: Meridian 59 Brian Green
- Reach out and bitch at someone Brian Green
- Reach out and bitch at someone David Bennett
- Reach out and bitch at someone Chris Jacobson
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone rayzam
- Reach out and bitch at someone David Bennett
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone Chris Jacobson
- Reach out and bitch at someone Jessica Mulligan
- Reach out and bitch at someone Dave Rickey
- Reach out and bitch at someone jolson@micron.net
- Reach out and bitch at someone Jack Doolan
- Reach out and bitch at someone Matthew Mihaly
- Reach out and bitch at someone Matthew Mihaly
- Reach out and bitch at someone Malcolm Valentine
- MUDLinux v0.5 J C Lawrence
- MUDLinux v0.5 David Wruck
- MUDLinux v0.5 Malcolm Valentine
- Maps and children's lit. (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Maps and children's lit. (fwd) Malcolm Valentine