June 2000
- Advancement considered harmful (long) [very short] Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Batir
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Richard Tew
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. AR Schleicher
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Christopher Allen
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Myschyf
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jon A. Lambert
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. PLAGNAL XAVIER
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Buehler
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Colin Coghill
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Hopson
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) Eli Stevens
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) rob@cs.nwu.edu
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Brian Green
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Sellers, Michael
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? Jon A. Lambert
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? J C Lawrence
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Entry and near-entry level jobs at Maxis Sellers, Michael
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Brian Green
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Wes Connell
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) AR Schleicher
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Charles Hughes
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Raph Koster
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Zak Jarvis
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) F. Randall Farmer
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) F. Randall Farmer
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Brian Green
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Miroslav Silovic
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Jon A. Lambert
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) John Buehler
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) adam@treyarch.com
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Par Winzell
- Of interest Jeff Freeman
- Of interest Dave Rickey
- Of interest Bruce
- Of interest Jeff Freeman
- Of interest AR Schleicher
- Intro Tamzen Cannoy
- Online actions and real-life religion Jason Spangler
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Brandon J. Rickman
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Angela Ferraiolo
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Marian Griffith
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Justin Rogers
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) J C Lawrence
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) adam@treyarch.com
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Wes Connell
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) J C Lawrence
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Jon A. Lambert
- Responsibility for users (was: Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) ) birgit.schulte@philips.com
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) Brian Green
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) Matthew Mihaly
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) J C Lawrence
- Backstories Chris Bunting
- Backstories J C Lawrence
- New poll J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) Matthew Mihaly
- Backstory (was New poll) Tess Lowe
- Backstory (was New poll) Matthew Mihaly
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Raph Koster
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Dave Rickey
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Marian Griffith
On Sat 10 Jun, J C Lawrence wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:34:31 -0700
> Sellers, Michael <MSellers@maxis.com> wrote:
> > Hmmm. Yes, I think back stories (not "backing story," btw)
> > *should* do a lot of these things -- they should explain the game
> > and give context, make the game more real, help the players create
> > their own stories, and give the key for the game culture.
The back story(s) of a game also provide help for the game developer
to make everything in the gameworld fit together. That may well be
the most important function of back stories. They are not there for
the player, at least not directly, but indirectly they help create a
coherent game which is more understandable, and more 'real' for all
the players, even those who do not care about the back story.
> > Unfortunately, the reality is that they're almost all meaningless
> > and irrelevant babble.
To many players they are. If to somebody the game is about fighting
and amassing experience points then the back story is irrelevant and
the best you can hope for, as a game developer, is to hide some info
inside it that the players need. The question is, should you? Is it
really that important to force the players to read something that is
not directly affecting their gameplay?
> > How many games have you played in where you didn't just rush past
> > the exposition and backstory in a "yeah yeah yeah -- get out of my
> > way and let me PLAY" sort of mode?
>
> Which is the real convinving factor. If backstories are so
> thoroughly ignorable and ignored, and yet we are achieving some
> modicum of success in communicating the framing of our games (ie the
> backstory), then what is actually doing the work? Is the backstory
> really a critical part that merely pretends to be irrelevant? Or is
> the backstory truly irrelevant and there's something else which is
> accomplishing what we consider the purpose of a back story, and we
> just don't realise it? Or, is a back story really only used by a
> very small percentage of the player base who then memetically infect
> the rest of the player base with the appropriate effects from the
> back story?
> My suspicion is that its the third form that actually happens. I
> don't have anything to demonstrate it other than gut feel however.
There is of course a fourth and even a fifth possibility. All back-
stories are pretty much the same. If you have read one you know what
is in the rest. Not the details perhaps, but the general content. So
players can ignore the actual story and go by what they have read be-
fore.
The fifth possibility is that even if the back story is not read much
by the -players- it is used by the -creators- which inserts a lot of
information from the back story into the game. Players learn some of
what is in the story simply by playing the game.
> > Backstories suck. They shouldn't, they really shouldn't, but
> > almost all of them do. Why is this, do you think?
> Because the only defined purpose we have for them is to act as a
> data dump for the players, usually dressed up in glitzy clothing and
> a wonder-bra, rather than as fictional narrative devices. We try
> and bubblegum the player to the drama with sex and effects rather
> than interest. We're not looking at them as fictional works which
> incidentally happen to have a data load, but instead as either a
> data load wrapped in a fictional skin, or a genital waving
> introduction to the game implementor's assumed capabilities
> (demoware).
Also, they are put at a point where the (potential) player is not im-
mediately interested in it. People dislike them for the same reason
they dislike elaborate character creation. It takes time, they do not
see the point and they want to do something else instead. Backstories
can be ignore, while character creation can not, so players will put
up with that but will ignore the back story.
> We're dealing with stories here, which immediately rephrases part of
> the question as to what scale of stories are we dealing with?
> Hollywood movies are inherently a short story form. They're
> certainly not novels tho they keep pretending to be. What is the
> narrative scale of our games? What is the narrative scale of our
> player's participation in our games? I see many mostly abortive
> attempts to establish vignette and ultra-short-story contexts in
> MUDs, all with the seeming assumption that by piling those on, by
> bundling them endlessly into a player's growth curve and game
> experience that we can eventually create a novel in some magical
> happenstance fashion, and I don't buy it.
This is very true. Of course, there is no equivalent from literature
that can be applied to muds. Mud designers do not tell stories. They
write plays, but without audience. Instead the audience becomes the
main character in the play, and the reader at the same time.
> What is the actual fictional scope of a player's intended experience
> in our games? That seems something worth knowing.
There is a duality here. Players both want the game to be entertain-
ment, which leads to a traditional narrative structure, and they want
to be the protagonist in the story, which makes that same structure
impossible. As a game designer you can not even chose to provide only
one of the two. Well, you could theoretically create a game that does
only provide the second. The game becomes a stage for the players to
fill with their own stories, as many mushes do. Of course this gives
the game designer very little influence on the actual experience of
the players, and makes the game passive. Nothing happens, unless the
players make something happen.
> >From a game design vantage: Romantically, narratively, how big a
> story are we trying to drag our users into? Is it really possible
> to go whole hog and realistically aim for an epic?
Hardly possible. The underlying premise of an epic is that a single
person, or a small group of persons, can make a change to the entire
world, or even the entire universe.
With -every- player being the main character in the epic you have too
many heroes and no secondary characters.
A second problem is that when the epic is concluded, there is nothing
left to do. The hero(es) overcame impossible odds and saved the world
what more could they possibly want to do?
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey - Backstory (was New poll) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) Harrison Edwards
- Backstory (was New poll) rayzam
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- Little Touches (was Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly) Todd McKimmey
- backstory poll results Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll Eli Stevens
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- [Meta] New poll Tess Lowe
- [Meta] New poll Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll PLAGNAL XAVIER
- [Meta] New poll Wes Connell
- [Meta] New poll Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll Erik Jarvi
- [Meta] New poll adam@treyarch.com
- Backstory (was New poll) Raph Koster
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Drunk Speak was:Bay Area Press Wes Connell
- Backstory (was New poll) Wes Connell
- Our player's keepers? (long) Brian Green
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Erik Jarvi
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Lee Sheldon
- Our player's keepers? (long) F. Randall Farmer
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Raph Koster
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Jessica Mulligan
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Sellers, Michael
- The Virtues of Small Muds - was (Our player's keepers? ) Jon A. Lambert
- MudDev FAQ 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ 1 J C Lawrence
- MudDev FAQ 2 Marian Griffith
- MudDEV FAQ request Marian Griffith
- NWN model (was Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 20 00) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Yet more new polls J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #131 - 23 msgs Dr. Cat
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Brian Green
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 John Buehler
- Games vs. simulations Matthew Mihaly
- Games vs. simulations Charles Hughes
- Games vs. simulations Dmitri Zagidulin
- Games vs. simulations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Games vs. simulations adam@treyarch.com
- Games vs. simulations Brandon J. Rickman
- Games vs. simulations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations adam@treyarch.com
- Games vs. simulations Marc Bowden
- Games vs. simulations Patrick Dughi
- Games vs. simulations Bruce
- Games vs. simulations Richard Woolcock
- Games vs. simulations Matthew Mihaly
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations F. Randall Farmer
- Games vs. simulations Travis Casey
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations Travis Casey
- Games vs. simulations J C Lawrence
- Games vs. simulations Brad Roberts
- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
- FW: A question of message propagation Patrick Dughi
- FW: A question of message propagation Jon A. Lambert
- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
- FW: A question of message propagation Chris Jacobson
- FW: A question of message propagation Jon A. Lambert
- Lego bulk ordering J C Lawrence
- Lego bulk ordering Chris Gray
- Lego bulk ordering Jason Spangler
- Mailing list: IRead J C Lawrence
- FC: Americans ditching TV for online news, Pew Research survey says (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Meta: Events page and dinner picture galleries J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection Kyle Leithoff
- Remote client connection Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection John Buehler
- Remote client connection Lee Sheldon
- Remote client connection John Buehler
- Remote client connection Lurn@missing.domain
- Remote client connection Patrick Dughi
- Remote client connection Phillip Lenhardt
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection Matthew Mihaly
- Remote client connection k.carter
- Remote client connection Raph Koster
- Remote client connection Erik Jarvi
- Remote client connection Richard Tew
- Remote client connection AR Schleicher
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Phillip Lenhardt
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Marian Griffith
- Bioware Chris Gray
- Bioware Raph Koster
- Meta: Regenning the list archives. J C Lawrence
- Commercial MUD developers destroy thinking! Brian Green
- Hello! Milne, Alistair
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Marian Griffith
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Mordengaard
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Josh Rollyson {dracus}
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Building On-Line 3D Worlds - Digital Actors/3D avatars Charles Hughes
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) Dmitri Zagidulin
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) adam@treyarch.com
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) Travis Casey
- Basic input techniques? Neil Edwards
- Basic input techniques? J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Brian Green
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Madrona Tree
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Madrona Tree
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers adam@treyarch.com
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Dan Shiovitz
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Spin
- Acting casual about casual gamers Jon Morrow
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers adam@treyarch.com
- Acting casual about casual gamers Raph Koster
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Michael Tresca
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Erik Jarvi
- Acting casual about casual gamers Malcolm Valentine
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Malcolm Valentine
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Michael Tresca
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Acting casual about casual gamers Chris Turner
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Jon A. Lambert
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Hunting mobs vs Economy (was Advancement considered harmful (long)) Jeremy Hovance
- using DB to store game state Eli Stevens
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- using DB to store game state Eli Stevens
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 J C Lawrence
- A Replacement for Telnet Phillip Lenhardt
- A Replacement for Telnet Justin Rogers
- C# vs. LPC Christopher Allen
- C# vs. LPC Travis Casey
- C# vs. LPC Felix A. Croes
- C# vs. LPC Travis Casey
- C# vs. LPC Owen
- C# vs. LPC J C Lawrence
- C# vs. LPC ashon@wsunix.wsu.edu
- Man Hours: (was Offline Persistence) Dmitri Zagidulin
- FW: [DGD]C# vs. LPC Christopher Allen
- Polling the users Jeff Freeman
- Collected comments on C# from comp.lang.python and the python mailing list. J C Lawrence
- Another Firstborn Falls: Meridian 59 Brian Green
- Reach out and bitch at someone Brian Green
- Reach out and bitch at someone David Bennett
- Reach out and bitch at someone Chris Jacobson
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone rayzam
- Reach out and bitch at someone David Bennett
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone Chris Jacobson
- Reach out and bitch at someone Jessica Mulligan
- Reach out and bitch at someone Dave Rickey
- Reach out and bitch at someone jolson@micron.net
- Reach out and bitch at someone Jack Doolan
- Reach out and bitch at someone Matthew Mihaly
- Reach out and bitch at someone Matthew Mihaly
- Reach out and bitch at someone Malcolm Valentine
- MUDLinux v0.5 J C Lawrence
- MUDLinux v0.5 David Wruck
- MUDLinux v0.5 Malcolm Valentine
- Maps and children's lit. (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Maps and children's lit. (fwd) Malcolm Valentine