June 2000
- Advancement considered harmful (long) [very short] Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Batir
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Richard Tew
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. AR Schleicher
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Christopher Allen
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Myschyf
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jon A. Lambert
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. PLAGNAL XAVIER
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Buehler
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Colin Coghill
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Hopson
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) Eli Stevens
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) rob@cs.nwu.edu
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Brian Green
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Sellers, Michael
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? Jon A. Lambert
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? J C Lawrence
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Entry and near-entry level jobs at Maxis Sellers, Michael
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Brian Green
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Wes Connell
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) AR Schleicher
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Charles Hughes
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Raph Koster
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:02:32 -0500
Raph Koster <rkoster@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> J C Lawrence wrote:
>> Societies are built on agreements. The members of the society
>> agree to certain tenets which define that society.
...
> Familiar. You sound like you are channeling me. :)
You had to hear it somewhere.
> Only saying it better.
You flatter me.
> The CitiBank point is why I posted the Rights and also favor
> player policing.
In many ways this really is a question of the Barbarians vs
CivilisedMan ($10 PayPerView).
The Chinese handling of the Mongol invasions (prior to the
construction of the wall) may be a useful parallel. The Chinese
reaction to the early invasions was simple: assimilation. The
mongols invaded, killed various people, took over the positions of
power, and within a couple generations were indistinguishable from
native Chinese. While Chinese culture and society did change during
and after those periods, to the vast extent inertia won over. The
Mongols were digested and briefly burped.
Civilisation is a process of the consideration of the value of the
other person. That can be a tough line to draw when the
counterpoint is that its all meaningless anyway.
> And despite the simplistic view many have of player policing, what
> I really mean by that is the ability for many kinds of people of
> different stripes (including those unwashes masses of which you
> speak) to jostle together in the virtual world and get along to
> some extent together, on their own.
Which squarely isolates the core problem: differing consensus on
"reality". IRL we're all pretty well agreed that life is real and
that remaining living is important. From the basis of that commonly
held (agreed) precept, and its simple extention from self to
"others" you've got the makings of a society (the value ordering of
other tenets can be argued as being the basic difference among
societies). IVR (if I may coin the matching acronym) that basic
agreement doesn't exist, and your argument in your Tree document of,
"it really is real, underneath," doesn't instinctively hold water.
Even if you argue that the "life is valuable" tenet is not a
suitable foundation tenet for the construction of RL society (I
accept the argument), the same pattern continues to hold true.
There are very few RL tenets which can be held as constant or
assumable in current VRL.
IRL the game of taking a Colt .45 about town and decorating the
street corners with the passer by's brains is not viewed
favourably. It is in Quake. In Quake there's an appreciation by
both shooter and target for a particularly elegant blood platter,
a well placed shot. IRL the cleanup squads have no such
aesthetics (I've spoken to them).
You see, its not really real, its just bits, slightly off-chaotic
electron patterns, minor pertubations in entropic decay -- or so the
counter argument goes. Like RL, the ONLY thing that makes it real
is the decision that it is real. It is real because we say it is.
Nihilism is a tough thing to argue with, most especially when it is
institutionalised. You have a pretty tough time arguing that "life
is important" once you reduce it to entropic molecular motion.
I was recently involved in a (small) flame war regarding
netiquette. I considered myself insulted. My opponent's position
was that "he hadn't peed on my shoes or anything," and that
therefore as it was only bits, slightly sub-chaotic electron
motions, none of it really mattered and any peeve I may derive
from the situation was therefore just a sign of my immaturity and
general inability to easily dismiss what he said as similarly
meaningless sub-chaotic electron motions.
He was right of course, and pathetically pitifully wrong at the
asme time. Bungle too. He was "right", and pathetically
pitifully wrong at the asme time. One could even argue that I was
"right" -- not that it helps anything. It wasn't even really a
question of social tenets, but of axioms, of basic understandings
on our universe and reality. A little more fundamental.
But, we're not used to thinking on those terms. We don't get out of
bed in the morning and remind ourselves that, "Oh yeah, this is
life, staying alive is important, and therefore these are the basic,
well catechised and memorised tenets of my social existance." IVR
we have, to a certain extent, to do that.
What would happen if you got up one day and found out that
everybody else didn't believe in gravity and that therefore, while
things did "fall down" for you and did behave in the expected
gravity based manner, they didn't for everybody else?
What if that weren't just true for gravity, but for all your basic
physical phenomena, and everybody did and did not, variously agree
on these basic items?
In essence that's what we are dealing with at a social level. The
axioms don't agree.
The builders and operators of Kazola's Tavern no doubt are quite
certain of its value, both to them and to others. To Bubba, who
merely sees a conveniently assembled VR bonfire, that's obviously
ludicrous, delusional even. Its just bits.
The problem is that we need to build a system that can withstand the
cooperation of multiple mutually contradictory societies and
viewpoints. A system that continues to operate when composed of
systems that don't even agree on their axioms, let alone any of
their basic tenets.
> Subcommunity formation. Cooperation, etc. It does NOT boil down to
> controlling PvPers.
PvP, PK in general, are symptomatic not causal. If you are not real
then it doesn't matter if I eviscerate you. If you are real, then
there is an obvious problem with playing Vlad the Impaler with your
body. The problem isn't my decapitatory habits, it is that I don't
consider heads to have value and you do, and those two games don't
cooperate well.
> It boils down to getting disparate worldviews to get along in one
> space.
It all comnes down to manners, to etiquette, to well known and
formalised methods of interaction and discovery. We are going to go
Victorian in a Big Way. We're going to have not care about the Vlad
the Impalers of the world, just that the impaled were correctly
asked of they wanted to play that game, and their answers were
suitably handled.
Meta society. Meta-manners. Meta-civility.
> The basic meme you speak of is something I've been reiterating
> (and prefaced the Rights with) for years now. Cf Story About a
> Tree. Look how many of us here don't believe it! Or have trouble
> accepting its full implications, perhaps because we'd prefer to
> not have the responsibility.
The counterpoint is exemplified by a simple example: An aquaintence
was once invited to buy-in to chartering a helicopter to fly out
over the Brazillian rainforest so they could shoot indians from the
helicopter with machine guns.
Apparently the indians were not real.
> The fact that we need all sorts of people in a VR space, and that
> we have to resolve the issues of subcommunities jostling against
> each other, is something I view as a primary goal for the
> genre.
Quite. And that encludes getting along with people who rent
helicopters with machine guns.
> It's why I disagree that the future is in niches. Niches will
> exist, but niches we can make. We're really arguing about the size
> of niche. Someday this won't be niche and if we don't solve it
> someone else will. Personally, I wanna be along for the ride.
Fractals. Everything is a niche. The entire process is the
subjugation of niches into increasingly common memes up until the
point that the meme becomes assumable (mass market), a commodity in
its own right, and thus a devalued framework for spawning other
niches.
> I know many consider me a nutty idealistic weirdo for it, but... I
> believe we do have a social responsibility. We're engaged in
> building what is perhaps the greatest teaching--nay, IMPRINTING
> tool ever designed. I think we should use it wisely.
I don't disagree in the slightest.
> I think to think of it as just a game is braindead
> shortsightedness.
Tho this I argue. I see few better compliments, but then that's
exactly how I view life.
--
J C Lawrence Home: claw@kanga.nu
----------(*) Other: coder@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- - Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
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- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
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- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
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- Of interest Jeff Freeman
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- Of interest Bruce
- Of interest Jeff Freeman
- Of interest AR Schleicher
- Intro Tamzen Cannoy
- Online actions and real-life religion Jason Spangler
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Brandon J. Rickman
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Angela Ferraiolo
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Marian Griffith
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Justin Rogers
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) J C Lawrence
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- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Wes Connell
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- Responsibility for users (was: Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) ) birgit.schulte@philips.com
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) Brian Green
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- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) J C Lawrence
- Backstories Chris Bunting
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- New poll J C Lawrence
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- Backstory (was New poll) J C Lawrence
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- Backstory (was New poll) Tess Lowe
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- Backstory (was New poll) Harrison Edwards
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- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- Little Touches (was Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly) Todd McKimmey
- backstory poll results Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll Eli Stevens
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- [Meta] New poll Tess Lowe
- [Meta] New poll Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll PLAGNAL XAVIER
- [Meta] New poll Wes Connell
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- [Meta] New poll adam@treyarch.com
- Backstory (was New poll) Raph Koster
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Drunk Speak was:Bay Area Press Wes Connell
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- Our player's keepers? (long) Brian Green
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Erik Jarvi
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Lee Sheldon
- Our player's keepers? (long) F. Randall Farmer
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Raph Koster
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Jessica Mulligan
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Sellers, Michael
- The Virtues of Small Muds - was (Our player's keepers? ) Jon A. Lambert
- MudDev FAQ 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ 1 J C Lawrence
- MudDev FAQ 2 Marian Griffith
- MudDEV FAQ request Marian Griffith
- NWN model (was Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 20 00) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Yet more new polls J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #131 - 23 msgs Dr. Cat
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Brian Green
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 John Buehler
- Games vs. simulations Matthew Mihaly
- Games vs. simulations Charles Hughes
- Games vs. simulations Dmitri Zagidulin
- Games vs. simulations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Games vs. simulations adam@treyarch.com
- Games vs. simulations Brandon J. Rickman
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- Games vs. simulations Bruce
- Games vs. simulations Richard Woolcock
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- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
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- Games vs. simulations J C Lawrence
- Games vs. simulations Brad Roberts
- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
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- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
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- Lego bulk ordering J C Lawrence
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- Mailing list: IRead J C Lawrence
- FC: Americans ditching TV for online news, Pew Research survey says (fwd) J C Lawrence
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- Remote client connection Kyle Leithoff
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- MUDLinux v0.5 J C Lawrence
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