June 2000
- Advancement considered harmful (long) [very short] Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Batir
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
On Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:59:05PM -0400, Dave Rickey wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 2:25 PM, Phillip Lenhardt wrote:
> >
> >I couldn't agree less. I see no problem with including things that the
> >designers feel the majority of the players will not find fun. For one
> >thing, players are perverse and often find fun in the wierdest activities.
> >For another, unfun activities can serve as a mild form of negative
> >reinforcement.
> >
> Okay, however these are not optional play modes. In the early days of
> UO, the only "legitimate" (non-duping, non-PK'ing) way to earn enough money
> to be a master-level Mage type was to skull-cap for hours on end, or work
> another money pump. For anyone wanting to engage in magery, generating cash
> was a *requirement* (it took more than 250,000 gold to reach GM mage, and
> that was considered a lot of money), and the tedium of doing so was a
> "negative reinforcement" intended to control the Mage population. Barring
Choosing to be or not to be a master-level Mage sure seems like an optional
play mode to me. And I highly doubt that the UO people put skull-capping in
specifically to aid players in their quest for master-level Magehood.
> It isn't that all players will define the activity as "non-fun", it is
> that the game system requires those that do to participate in activity they
> do not enjoy for large amounts of time. Using "negative reinforcement" in
> this fashion essentially means that you are going to make a tedium level
> high enough that many will not tolerate it and instead will do something
> else. That *is* stupid. There's supposed to be a game in there somewhere,
> right? What about all the guys who aren't quite bored enough to stop doing
> it, but still aren't having "fun"?
While it wasn't my intention to argue for using tedium level as negative
reinforcement, on reflection it seems to me a fine way of channeling players
towards more interesting game play. The trick is to not just make it boring,
but make it also non-scriptable.
Why is it stupid to discourage all but those most dedicated to achieving a
goal through whatever means possible?
> Okay, we agree that reducing the number of repetitive actions is good.
Glad to hear it.
> I can agree (in theory) that reducing the number of repetitive actions *may*
> reduce per-session time (on the principle that if players log in to do
> certain specific things, doing them quickly will let them log out quickly).
I didn't quite mean this, but (in theory) I agree too. :)
> We agree that making the game more fun for more people through multiple
> play-modes is good. What are we arguing about again? That making
> time-wasters an integral part of gameplay as a "negative reinforcement" is a
> good way to design a game? I ain't going to buy into that. "Negative
> Reinforcement" is how you tell a player he's doing something *wrong*. If he
> can't escape them, he's liable to think the "wrong" thing he did was logging
> on.
And perhaps he is right. All those skull-cappers could have been doing
something interesting, like raising everyone's standard of living to the
point where the economy could support more master-level Mages (which is
what I expect the situation is now, since you say "In the early days").
Of course, in a commercial game, you don't want alienate your customers to
the point where they stop paying for your service, so perhaps there is some
way of directing these players to the intermediate goals that would best serve
their long-term ambitions.
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Richard Tew
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. AR Schleicher
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Christopher Allen
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Myschyf
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jon A. Lambert
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. PLAGNAL XAVIER
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Buehler
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Colin Coghill
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Hopson
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) Eli Stevens
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) rob@cs.nwu.edu
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Brian Green
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Sellers, Michael
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? Jon A. Lambert
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? J C Lawrence
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Entry and near-entry level jobs at Maxis Sellers, Michael
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Brian Green
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Wes Connell
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) AR Schleicher
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Charles Hughes
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Raph Koster
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Zak Jarvis
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) F. Randall Farmer
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) F. Randall Farmer
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Brian Green
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Miroslav Silovic
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Jon A. Lambert
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) John Buehler
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) adam@treyarch.com
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Par Winzell
- Of interest Jeff Freeman
- Of interest Dave Rickey
- Of interest Bruce
- Of interest Jeff Freeman
- Of interest AR Schleicher
- Intro Tamzen Cannoy
- Online actions and real-life religion Jason Spangler
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Brandon J. Rickman
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Angela Ferraiolo
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Marian Griffith
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Justin Rogers
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) J C Lawrence
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) adam@treyarch.com
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Wes Connell
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) J C Lawrence
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Jon A. Lambert
- Responsibility for users (was: Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) ) birgit.schulte@philips.com
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) Brian Green
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) Matthew Mihaly
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) J C Lawrence
- Backstories Chris Bunting
- Backstories J C Lawrence
- New poll J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) Matthew Mihaly
- Backstory (was New poll) Tess Lowe
- Backstory (was New poll) Matthew Mihaly
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Raph Koster
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Dave Rickey
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Marian Griffith
- Backstory (was New poll) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) Harrison Edwards
- Backstory (was New poll) rayzam
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- Little Touches (was Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly) Todd McKimmey
- backstory poll results Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll Eli Stevens
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- [Meta] New poll Tess Lowe
- [Meta] New poll Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll PLAGNAL XAVIER
- [Meta] New poll Wes Connell
- [Meta] New poll Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll Erik Jarvi
- [Meta] New poll adam@treyarch.com
- Backstory (was New poll) Raph Koster
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Drunk Speak was:Bay Area Press Wes Connell
- Backstory (was New poll) Wes Connell
- Our player's keepers? (long) Brian Green
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Erik Jarvi
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Lee Sheldon
- Our player's keepers? (long) F. Randall Farmer
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Raph Koster
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Jessica Mulligan
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Sellers, Michael
- The Virtues of Small Muds - was (Our player's keepers? ) Jon A. Lambert
- MudDev FAQ 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ 1 J C Lawrence
- MudDev FAQ 2 Marian Griffith
- MudDEV FAQ request Marian Griffith
- NWN model (was Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 20 00) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Yet more new polls J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #131 - 23 msgs Dr. Cat
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Brian Green
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 John Buehler
- Games vs. simulations Matthew Mihaly
- Games vs. simulations Charles Hughes
- Games vs. simulations Dmitri Zagidulin
- Games vs. simulations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Games vs. simulations adam@treyarch.com
- Games vs. simulations Brandon J. Rickman
- Games vs. simulations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations adam@treyarch.com
- Games vs. simulations Marc Bowden
- Games vs. simulations Patrick Dughi
- Games vs. simulations Bruce
- Games vs. simulations Richard Woolcock
- Games vs. simulations Matthew Mihaly
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations F. Randall Farmer
- Games vs. simulations Travis Casey
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations Travis Casey
- Games vs. simulations J C Lawrence
- Games vs. simulations Brad Roberts
- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
- FW: A question of message propagation Patrick Dughi
- FW: A question of message propagation Jon A. Lambert
- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
- FW: A question of message propagation Chris Jacobson
- FW: A question of message propagation Jon A. Lambert
- Lego bulk ordering J C Lawrence
- Lego bulk ordering Chris Gray
- Lego bulk ordering Jason Spangler
- Mailing list: IRead J C Lawrence
- FC: Americans ditching TV for online news, Pew Research survey says (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Meta: Events page and dinner picture galleries J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection Kyle Leithoff
- Remote client connection Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection John Buehler
- Remote client connection Lee Sheldon
- Remote client connection John Buehler
- Remote client connection Lurn@missing.domain
- Remote client connection Patrick Dughi
- Remote client connection Phillip Lenhardt
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection Matthew Mihaly
- Remote client connection k.carter
- Remote client connection Raph Koster
- Remote client connection Erik Jarvi
- Remote client connection Richard Tew
- Remote client connection AR Schleicher
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Phillip Lenhardt
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Marian Griffith
- Bioware Chris Gray
- Bioware Raph Koster
- Meta: Regenning the list archives. J C Lawrence
- Commercial MUD developers destroy thinking! Brian Green
- Hello! Milne, Alistair
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Marian Griffith
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Mordengaard
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Josh Rollyson {dracus}
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Building On-Line 3D Worlds - Digital Actors/3D avatars Charles Hughes
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) Dmitri Zagidulin
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) adam@treyarch.com
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) Travis Casey
- Basic input techniques? Neil Edwards
- Basic input techniques? J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Brian Green
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Madrona Tree
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Madrona Tree
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers adam@treyarch.com
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Dan Shiovitz
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Spin
- Acting casual about casual gamers Jon Morrow
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers adam@treyarch.com
- Acting casual about casual gamers Raph Koster
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Michael Tresca
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Erik Jarvi
- Acting casual about casual gamers Malcolm Valentine
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Malcolm Valentine
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Michael Tresca
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Acting casual about casual gamers Chris Turner
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Jon A. Lambert
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Hunting mobs vs Economy (was Advancement considered harmful (long)) Jeremy Hovance
- using DB to store game state Eli Stevens
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- using DB to store game state Eli Stevens
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 J C Lawrence
- A Replacement for Telnet Phillip Lenhardt
- A Replacement for Telnet Justin Rogers
- C# vs. LPC Christopher Allen
- C# vs. LPC Travis Casey
- C# vs. LPC Felix A. Croes
- C# vs. LPC Travis Casey
- C# vs. LPC Owen
- C# vs. LPC J C Lawrence
- C# vs. LPC ashon@wsunix.wsu.edu
- Man Hours: (was Offline Persistence) Dmitri Zagidulin
- FW: [DGD]C# vs. LPC Christopher Allen
- Polling the users Jeff Freeman
- Collected comments on C# from comp.lang.python and the python mailing list. J C Lawrence
- Another Firstborn Falls: Meridian 59 Brian Green
- Reach out and bitch at someone Brian Green
- Reach out and bitch at someone David Bennett
- Reach out and bitch at someone Chris Jacobson
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone rayzam
- Reach out and bitch at someone David Bennett
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone Chris Jacobson
- Reach out and bitch at someone Jessica Mulligan
- Reach out and bitch at someone Dave Rickey
- Reach out and bitch at someone jolson@micron.net
- Reach out and bitch at someone Jack Doolan
- Reach out and bitch at someone Matthew Mihaly
- Reach out and bitch at someone Matthew Mihaly
- Reach out and bitch at someone Malcolm Valentine
- MUDLinux v0.5 J C Lawrence
- MUDLinux v0.5 David Wruck
- MUDLinux v0.5 Malcolm Valentine
- Maps and children's lit. (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Maps and children's lit. (fwd) Malcolm Valentine