June 2000
- Advancement considered harmful (long) [very short] Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. F. Randall Farmer
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Zak Jarvis
> From: F. Randall Farmer [randy@communities.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 1:54 PM
> Here's the question: Are we designing systems that _encourage_, or
> event _require_ massive numbers of online hours, without end, in order
> for the customer to succeed? Are we building little Skinner boxes that
> are commercially successful at the expense of human (social) lives?
> What if anything, should we do about it (before others get really
> pissed and do something about it for us?)
This whole thread is where I was really trying to go with my bits about
creative input. As is usually my problem, I got sidetracked by small
details.
My angle was the creative addiction, but the real one is what everyone is
talking about.
I've seen it argued here that no one *must* spend their time in our games,
the implication being quite clear that addiction is *their* fault, we just
make the product.
The lot of us producing these games are doing it for a wide variety of
reasons and with a wide range of intended products. Some of us want sims,
some of us want games, some of us want virtual theater, some want
combinations of all of the above, others want to find something new that
isn't any of the above. That's all fine and well, but the truth is that we
are all attempting to immerse other humans into worlds that we -- at some
level -- have created. And so I say to those foisting the blame of
game-dependency wholly onto the player: bullshit.
As designers of these products we absolutely *do* have some responsibility.
The amount of time players spend in our games is -- of course -- ultimately
determined by them. This is obvious. What's also obvious is that we as
designers are attempting to influence the amount of time they spend with
our product.
Whose will wins here? Who is responsible? The player obviously shoulders
some -- maybe even most -- of the weight, but the designer is *not*
absolved. Some of us here on this list have certainly achieved a great
deal of authoritive power in the field, but I don't think anyone feels
confident enough to start handing out indulgences yet.
And now to undercut some of what I've said.
With the current market we have, (IE, largely 'enthusiasts') we have a
player population which is (in my not-very-humble opinion) exhibiting a
higher than average degree of some rather extreme psychological
dysfunction.
As designers, we're *not* responsible for that (except for those designers
who are themselves falling under more than 2 personality disorders as per
the DSM IV).
I really don't think this issue is a falling sky issue, or perhaps it is
depending on which side of the story you look at. There's definitely some
blue-painted plaster laying around, but last I checked the sky itself is
quite colorfast and this plaster is decidedly faded.
However, I find it quite asinine to put all the blame at the feet of the
players whose lives are screwed up. There really and truly are things that
can be done to improve the designs and create games which aren't actively
feeding problems to players.
Hrm, I'm lecturing, and a lot of the posters here are looking greedily at
the soap-box I'm standing on. I'll quit here before someone takes away my
asterisk key.
-Zak Jarvis
http://www.voidmonster.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Zak Jarvis
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Batir
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Phillip Lenhardt
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Charles Hughes
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Richard Tew
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. AR Schleicher
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Christopher Allen
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Myschyf
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jon A. Lambert
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. PLAGNAL XAVIER
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Buehler
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Colin Coghill
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Shakkar
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Chris Turner
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. John Hopson
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) Eli Stevens
- AI Texts (was: Thoughts about smarter Sims) rob@cs.nwu.edu
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Jessica Mulligan
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Raph Koster
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Dave Rickey
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. Brian Green
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugl y. Sellers, Michael
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. adam@treyarch.com
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? Jon A. Lambert
- Off-Topic: Reality shift? J C Lawrence
- Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly. J C Lawrence
- Entry and near-entry level jobs at Maxis Sellers, Michael
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Brian Green
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Wes Connell
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) AR Schleicher
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Charles Hughes
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Raph Koster
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Zak Jarvis
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) F. Randall Farmer
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) F. Randall Farmer
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Brian Green
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Miroslav Silovic
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Dave Rickey
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) J C Lawrence
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Jon A. Lambert
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) John Buehler
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) adam@treyarch.com
- Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long) Par Winzell
- Of interest Jeff Freeman
- Of interest Dave Rickey
- Of interest Bruce
- Of interest Jeff Freeman
- Of interest AR Schleicher
- Intro Tamzen Cannoy
- Online actions and real-life religion Jason Spangler
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems J C Lawrence
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Brandon J. Rickman
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Angela Ferraiolo
- Narrative, quest design, and the solution of in-game problems Marian Griffith
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Justin Rogers
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) J C Lawrence
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) adam@treyarch.com
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Wes Connell
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) J C Lawrence
- Hidden identities. (was (no subject)) Jon A. Lambert
- Responsibility for users (was: Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks) (long) ) birgit.schulte@philips.com
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) Brian Green
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) Matthew Mihaly
- Multiplayer definition (was: Birthday Cake) J C Lawrence
- Backstories Chris Bunting
- Backstories J C Lawrence
- New poll J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) J C Lawrence
- Backstory (was New poll) Matthew Mihaly
- Backstory (was New poll) Tess Lowe
- Backstory (was New poll) Matthew Mihaly
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Raph Koster
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Dave Rickey
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Backstory (was New poll) Marian Griffith
- Backstory (was New poll) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) Harrison Edwards
- Backstory (was New poll) rayzam
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- Little Touches (was Bay Area Press UO, the good the bad and the Ugly) Todd McKimmey
- backstory poll results Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll Eli Stevens
- [Meta] New poll J C Lawrence
- [Meta] New poll Tess Lowe
- [Meta] New poll Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll PLAGNAL XAVIER
- [Meta] New poll Wes Connell
- [Meta] New poll Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] New poll Erik Jarvi
- [Meta] New poll adam@treyarch.com
- Backstory (was New poll) Raph Koster
- Backstory (was New poll) Zak Jarvis
- Drunk Speak was:Bay Area Press Wes Connell
- Backstory (was New poll) Wes Connell
- Our player's keepers? (long) Brian Green
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Erik Jarvi
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Jon A. Lambert
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Our player's keepers? (long) Zak Jarvis
- Our player's keepers? (long) Matthew Mihaly
- Our player's keepers? (long) Lee Sheldon
- Our player's keepers? (long) F. Randall Farmer
- Our player's keepers? (long) J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Raph Koster
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Jessica Mulligan
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Sellers, Michael
- The Virtues of Small Muds - was (Our player's keepers? ) Jon A. Lambert
- MudDev FAQ 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ 1 J C Lawrence
- MudDev FAQ 2 Marian Griffith
- MudDEV FAQ request Marian Griffith
- NWN model (was Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 20 00) Sellers, Michael
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Backstory (was New poll) Angela Ferraiolo
- Backstory (was New poll) Lee Sheldon
- Yet more new polls J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #131 - 23 msgs Dr. Cat
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 Brian Green
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 John Buehler
- Games vs. simulations Matthew Mihaly
- Games vs. simulations Charles Hughes
- Games vs. simulations Dmitri Zagidulin
- Games vs. simulations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Games vs. simulations adam@treyarch.com
- Games vs. simulations Brandon J. Rickman
- Games vs. simulations Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations adam@treyarch.com
- Games vs. simulations Marc Bowden
- Games vs. simulations Patrick Dughi
- Games vs. simulations Bruce
- Games vs. simulations Richard Woolcock
- Games vs. simulations Matthew Mihaly
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations F. Randall Farmer
- Games vs. simulations Travis Casey
- Games vs. simulations Richard Tew
- Games vs. simulations Travis Casey
- Games vs. simulations J C Lawrence
- Games vs. simulations Brad Roberts
- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
- FW: A question of message propagation Patrick Dughi
- FW: A question of message propagation Jon A. Lambert
- FW: A question of message propagation Joe Kingry
- FW: A question of message propagation Chris Jacobson
- FW: A question of message propagation Jon A. Lambert
- Lego bulk ordering J C Lawrence
- Lego bulk ordering Chris Gray
- Lego bulk ordering Jason Spangler
- Mailing list: IRead J C Lawrence
- FC: Americans ditching TV for online news, Pew Research survey says (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Meta: Events page and dinner picture galleries J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection Kyle Leithoff
- Remote client connection Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection John Buehler
- Remote client connection Lee Sheldon
- Remote client connection John Buehler
- Remote client connection Lurn@missing.domain
- Remote client connection Patrick Dughi
- Remote client connection Phillip Lenhardt
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Remote client connection J C Lawrence
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection Matthew Mihaly
- Remote client connection k.carter
- Remote client connection Raph Koster
- Remote client connection Erik Jarvi
- Remote client connection Richard Tew
- Remote client connection AR Schleicher
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Phillip Lenhardt
- Remote client connection John Bertoglio
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Travis Casey
- Remote client connection Marian Griffith
- Bioware Chris Gray
- Bioware Raph Koster
- Meta: Regenning the list archives. J C Lawrence
- Commercial MUD developers destroy thinking! Brian Green
- Hello! Milne, Alistair
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Marian Griffith
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Mordengaard
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Josh Rollyson {dracus}
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Travis Casey
- Building On-Line 3D Worlds - Digital Actors/3D avatars Charles Hughes
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) Dmitri Zagidulin
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) adam@treyarch.com
- Remote client connection (J C Lawrence) Travis Casey
- Basic input techniques? Neil Edwards
- Basic input techniques? J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Brian Green
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Madrona Tree
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Madrona Tree
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers adam@treyarch.com
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Dan Shiovitz
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Spin
- Acting casual about casual gamers Jon Morrow
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers John Buehler
- Acting casual about casual gamers adam@treyarch.com
- Acting casual about casual gamers Raph Koster
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Michael Tresca
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Erik Jarvi
- Acting casual about casual gamers Malcolm Valentine
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Malcolm Valentine
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Michael Tresca
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Charles Hughes
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Acting casual about casual gamers Chris Turner
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers rayzam
- Acting casual about casual gamers Greg Miller
- Acting casual about casual gamers Jon A. Lambert
- Acting casual about casual gamers J C Lawrence
- Acting casual about casual gamers Travis Casey
- Acting casual about casual gamers Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Hunting mobs vs Economy (was Advancement considered harmful (long)) Jeremy Hovance
- using DB to store game state Eli Stevens
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- using DB to store game state Eli Stevens
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- using DB to store game state J C Lawrence
- Report: MUD-Dev dinner of 10 June 2000 J C Lawrence
- A Replacement for Telnet Phillip Lenhardt
- A Replacement for Telnet Justin Rogers
- C# vs. LPC Christopher Allen
- C# vs. LPC Travis Casey
- C# vs. LPC Felix A. Croes
- C# vs. LPC Travis Casey
- C# vs. LPC Owen
- C# vs. LPC J C Lawrence
- C# vs. LPC ashon@wsunix.wsu.edu
- Man Hours: (was Offline Persistence) Dmitri Zagidulin
- FW: [DGD]C# vs. LPC Christopher Allen
- Polling the users Jeff Freeman
- Collected comments on C# from comp.lang.python and the python mailing list. J C Lawrence
- Another Firstborn Falls: Meridian 59 Brian Green
- Reach out and bitch at someone Brian Green
- Reach out and bitch at someone David Bennett
- Reach out and bitch at someone Chris Jacobson
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone rayzam
- Reach out and bitch at someone David Bennett
- Reach out and bitch at someone Marc Bowden
- Reach out and bitch at someone Chris Jacobson
- Reach out and bitch at someone Jessica Mulligan
- Reach out and bitch at someone Dave Rickey
- Reach out and bitch at someone jolson@micron.net
- Reach out and bitch at someone Jack Doolan
- Reach out and bitch at someone Matthew Mihaly
- Reach out and bitch at someone Matthew Mihaly
- Reach out and bitch at someone Malcolm Valentine
- MUDLinux v0.5 J C Lawrence
- MUDLinux v0.5 David Wruck
- MUDLinux v0.5 Malcolm Valentine
- Maps and children's lit. (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Maps and children's lit. (fwd) Malcolm Valentine