May 2000
- Interesting online game Brian Green
- Bayesian statistics Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Client Technology Jon Morrow
- Client Technology Todd McKimmey
- Client Technology Andrew Wilson
- Client Technology Ben Greear
- Client Technology Greg Munt
- Client Technology Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Client Technology Joel Dillon
- Advogato J C Lawrence
- tdbm etc. J C Lawrence
- text user interface Eli Stevens
- text user interface Chris Gray
- Legends of Kesmai, RIP Raph Koster
- Legends of Kesmai, RIP Clevmut@aol.com
- Medievia ads in PCGamer? Schubert, Damion
- Medievia ads in PCGamer? Rasdan
- FIrst LOgin REview (was attracting players) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- FIrst LOgin REview (was attracting players) adam@treyarch.com
- FIrst LOgin REview (was attracting players) David Bennett
- FIrst LOgin REview (was attracting players) adam@treyarch.com
- FIrst LOgin REview (was attracting players) David Bennett
- FIrst LOgin REview (was attracting players) Chris Gray
- FIrst LOgin REview (was attracting players) Chris Gray
- Addressing newbies Johan J Ingles-le Nobel
- Addressing newbies stoddart@slip.net
- Addressing newbies adam@treyarch.com
- Addressing newbies J C Lawrence
- Addressing newbies Chris Gray
- Addressing newbies Powell, Warren
- Addressing newbies adam@treyarch.com
- Addressing newbies Chris Lloyd
- Addressing newbies adam@treyarch.com
- Addressing newbies Chris Lloyd
- Addressing newbies adam@treyarch.com
- Addressing newbies Christopher Allen
- Addressing newbies J C Lawrence
- Addressing newbies J C Lawrence
- Addressing newbies Raph Koster
- Addressing newbies Christopher Allen
- Addressing newbies adam@treyarch.com
- Addressing newbies J C Lawrence
- Introduction Ian C. Smith
- constructive quests Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- new email address Travis Casey
- [Meta] chest puffing (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [Meta] chest puffing (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [Meta] chest puffing (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] chest puffing (fwd) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [Meta] chest puffing (fwd) Par Winzell
- [Meta] chest puffing (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] chest puffing (fwd) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [Meta] chest puffing (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
- Critique: Realms of Despair adam@treyarch.com
- Critique: Realms of Despair David Bennett
- Critique: Realms of Despair Kevin Scott London
- Critique: Realms of Despair adam@treyarch.com
- Critique: Realms of Despair Andrew Ritchie
- Critique: Realms of Despair adam@treyarch.com
- Critique: Realms of Despair adam@treyarch.com
- Critique: Realms of Despair Marc Bowden
- Software combinations Ian C. Smith
- Software combinations David Bennett
- Software combinations Erik Jarvi
- Software combinations Ian C. Smith
- Software combinations Scatter
- Software combinations J C Lawrence
- Hobby Muds and Money Maarten van Leunen
- Hobby Muds and Money Mordengaard
- Mud Clients Mud Imp
- update on selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- update on selling Godhoods Brian Green
- update on selling Godhoods Richard Woolcock
- update on selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- update on selling Godhoods Jeremy Hovance
- Ten commandments for the next MMORPG Raph Koster
- Ten commandments for the next MMORPG Dan Shiovitz
- Ten commandments for the next MMORPG Brian Green
- Ten commandments for the next MMORPG Matthew Mihaly
- Ten commandments for the next MMORPG AR Schleicher
- Ten commandments for the next MMORPG Mud Imp
- Ten Commandments for the next MMORPG The Inquisition Administrator
- Ten commandments for the next MMORPG David Wruck
- MudDev FAQ 2 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ 2 Wes Connell
- The great myth of broadband Brian Green
- The great myth of broadband Madrona Tree
- The great myth of broadband Par Winzell
- The great myth of broadband John Bertoglio
- Effective use of the third dimension Richard Ross
- Effective use of the third dimension adam@treyarch.com
- Effective use of the third dimension Richard Tew
- Ten commandments for players of the next MMORPG Ananda Dawnsinger
- Free Speech Jeff Freeman
- Free Speech Ananda Dawnsinger
- Free Speech Par Winzell
- Free Speech Jeff Freeman
- Free Speech Jon A. Lambert
- Free Speech Schubert, Damion
- Free Speech Matthew Mihaly
- Free Speech Jessica Mulligan
- Free Speech Darren Henderson
- Free Speech kitkat@marcus.pants.nu
- Free Speech Gary Whitten
- Free Speech J C Lawrence
- Free Speech Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- Free Speech Jeremy Hovance
- RPGPlanet article: The Evils of Character Progression Raph Koster
- More storytelling - And also game secrets Chris Lloyd
- Marketing text-based games (was: Ten Commandments for the next MMORPG) Andrew Ritchie
- java performance questions (fwd) J C Lawrence
- MUDs as art (was A footnote to Procedural Storytelling) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUDs as art (was A footnote to Procedural Storytelling) Lee Sheldon
- MUDs as art (was A footnote to Procedural Storytelling) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Any hungry Java GUI programmers out there? Par Winzell
- Any hungry Java GUI programmers out there? Par Winzell
- Supporting multiple output formats Nolan Darilek
- The 10 basic rules of a good PvP system Raph Koster
- Player storytellers? Travis Nixon
- Thoughts about smarter Sims Jon A. Lambert
- Thoughts about smarter Sims J C Lawrence
- Thoughts about smarter Sims Jon A. Lambert
- Thoughts about smarter Sims Raph Koster
- Thoughts about smarter Sims Jon A. Lambert
- Thoughts about smarter Sims Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Thoughts about smarter Sims Jon A. Lambert
- Thoughts about smarter Sims Mordengaard
- Thoughts about smarter Sims Jon A. Lambert
- Thoughts about smarter Sims Justin Rogers
- Thoughts about smarter Sims Jon A. Lambert
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Brian Green
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Zak Jarvis
- Advancement considered harmful (long) J C Lawrence
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Zak Jarvis
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Raph Koster
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Zak Jarvis
> From: Raph Koster [rkoster@austin.rr.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 10:48 PM
> > From: Zak Jarvis [zak@voidmonster.com]
> > Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 2:01 PM
> > Once the shininess wears off, it becomes mundane. The more known it is,
> > the less the experience of playing can convey any Numinosity. Kind of a
> > spiritual Uncertainty Principle.
> My first reaction was, "can't you say that about everything?"
Yep, but gaming is an industry heavily leaned upon by the threadbare,
chain-smoking specter of novelty. With MPORG's, I really do think a lot of
people get stuck playing them for a while because of they provide a kind of
nourishment, and the nourishment can diminish with the novelty.
I'm quite surprised that the movie eXistenZ hasn't received more discussion
here, having just done a search through the archives. It provides a nice
illustration of what I'm getting at. For a lot of players (especially of
text-based MUDs), the world initially has the solidity and 'reality' that
TransCendenz does in the movie. As it does in the film, the unreality of it
begins to accrete around the edges of things until the alternate reality
isn't sustainable for the player.
(If you're in this industry, and you haven't seen eXistenZ, you REALLY
should, preferably twice.)
I'm not trying to say that this is the only way that people play these
games, because some people aren't after that particular experience. Maybe
even most, in large commercial games. Further, I strongly suspect
graphics-based games have a shorter hold in this regard.
> My second reaction was, "there are some things that always make
> me feel the numinous."
Even though a huge number of the moldering dead were put in the ground
because of differing experiences of the numinous, I agree with you here...
> My third reaction was, "a heck of a lot of those things are creative
> endeavors. Some of them are other's people's creations, in cases
> where I now know enough about what was accomplished to appreciate
> the creation more."
Curiously, as an artist I experience the numinous mostly through music, a
form I have little to no formal understanding of. Further, my experience of
it runs the gamut of musical experience. Bach's fugues, Nick Cave's 'The
Mercy Seat', bits and pieces of Diamanda Galas, whole pieces of Lisa
Gerrard (but that's so cliche...), Brian Eno's militantly nonsensical 'The
Roil, The Choke', Gorecki's 'Piece in the Old Style 1', Ute Lemper's
'Little Water Song', Massive Attack's 'Teardrop'... It goes on for quite a
long time.
I occasionally find it in movies (and pretty much in *any* Kurosawa you
care to mention), but best is when it's just there -- out in the world,
some random thing with a resonance I cannot pin or describe.
> Oddly enough, this led me to thinking that the answer is
> allowing players to build more in the game. And more than
> just build the mud--let's put in as many of the RL creative
> endeavors into the game as we can.
I think that's a great idea, but it raises some profound issues of
ownership, copyright and intellectual property, as well as philosophical
issues.
Here's the scenario:
I create a game which allows the players to paint pictures, write music,
enact plays, sing, dance, make petroglyphs and craft items from any
material they can think of. Part of my boilerplate TOS is that I, Game
Developer, Inc. own any material created within the game. Quite standard
stuff, if I recall correctly.
An artist plays my game and creates a picture which is better than anything
he has ever created before. Yet, his work is totally bound to my world. He
burns out on the game (as per my original discussion. ;) and moves on to
yet another game that supports rampant creativity (yes, this example takes
place in a mythical, nearly-perfect world). He still doesn't create
anything that surpasses or even equals the painting he created in My
Game(tm).
The questions this raises for me as a designer are troubling.
If this player feels that I've robbed him of his best creative work, have
I? I'm not certain. Even if I have no such clause in my TOS, can his work
be sufficiently separated from my game to be meaningful elsewhere?
Certainly some artists appreciate impermanence in their works, but I'm a
bit queasy about mandating it at the same time I'm encouraging them to be
creative and artistic. It's like teaching kids to paint on flashpaper and
then burning all the paintings at the end of the day.
The implications run straight into what Cronenberg was getting at with
eXistenZ: can a game become art which is dangerous enough to elicit a
Fatwah?
Even with questions like that though, I think you're right. Giving players
tools to be creative within your world gives them authorship (a concept
we're really keen on in the game we're developing here), and authorship
makes the experience meaningful. Good does not always come without a price.
-Zak Jarvis
http://www.voidmonster.com - Advancement considered harmful (long) Charles Hughes
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Zak Jarvis
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Zak Jarvis
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Dave Rickey
- Advancement considered harmful (long) J C Lawrence
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Travis Nixon
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Miroslav Silovic
- Advancement considered harmful (long) Batir
- What I want, what players want Andrew Ritchie
- What I want, what players want Chris Jacobson
- What I want, what players want Jeff Freeman
- What I want, what players want Nicolai Hansen
- What I want, what players want Darren Henderson
- What I want, what players want adam@treyarch.com
- Domain Names and Trademarks Jon Morrow
- Domain Names and Trademarks J C Lawrence
- Domain Names and Trademarks Sellers, Michael
- Narratology WAS: Self-Sufficient Worlds Zak Jarvis
- Narratology WAS: Self-Sufficient Worlds J C Lawrence
- Narratology WAS: Self-Sufficient Worlds Zak Jarvis
- Narratology WAS: Self-Sufficient Worlds Christopher Allen
- narratology WAS Self-Sufficient Worlds Angela Ferraiolo
- FW: Advancement considered harmful (long) John Buehler
- Narratology and its application to VR, multi-player games, and the like J C Lawrence
- FW: Advancement considered harmful (long) John Buehler
- coordinate systems Richard Tew
- coordinate systems Jon Leonard
- coordinate systems Kerem 'Waster_' HADIMLI