April 2000
- [Open_Gaming_Moderated] Simplified License for Comment and Critique (fwd) J C Lawrence
- An introduction Brian Green
- An idea for breaking away from the HP/Mana mindset Eli Stevens
- An idea for breaking away from the HP/Mana mindset Ryan P.
- An idea for breaking away from the HP/Mana mindset Erik Jarvi
- An idea for breaking away from the HP/Mana mindset Eli Stevens
- An idea for breaking away from the HP/Mana mindset Travis Casey
- An idea for breaking away from the HP/Mana mindset Jeremy Hovance
- An idea for breaking away from the HP/Mana mindset adam@treyarch.com
- Old Topic: Playfulness in 3-D Spaces, done. Rudy Fink
- META: Topic List - 1999 Jon A. Lambert
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Jon A. Lambert
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Cynbe ru Taren
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Miroslav Silovic
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Jay Carlson
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Travis Casey
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Derek Snider
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Holly Sommer
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Nick Shaffner
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Travis S. Casey
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Quzah
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Todd McKimmey
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Spin
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Richard Woolcock
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Miroslav Silovic
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Jon A. Lambert
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Jon Leonard
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Travis Casey
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Powell, Warren
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Travis Casey
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Jon Lambert
- Fw: 16K mud server competition ! Travis Casey
- Fw: DESIGN: XML? Jon A. Lambert
- PK / anti PK / justice? J. Coleman
- Neverwinter Nights Jeff Freeman
- J (was: 16K mud server competition !) Cynbe ru Taren
- J (was: 16K mud server competition !) Miroslav Silovic
- J (was: 16K mud server competition !) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Morality and Values Based Role Play in MMORPGs. Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- MUD-Dev request rejected (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
- MUD-Dev request rejected (fwd) adam@treyarch.com
- MUD-Dev request rejected (fwd) Jeff Freeman
- Orthogonality and invariants Miroslav Silovic
- Orthogonality and invariants cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- Uptime numbers (was Orthogonality and invariants) Jay Carlson
- Schmuse J C Lawrence
- Article on WoC's 'Open Sourcing' D&D in Salon Christopher Allen
- Multilevel server concept Draymoor
- Multilevel server concept Tochiro
- Multilevel server concept Emil Eifrem
- Multilevel server concept Kristen L. Koster
- Multilevel server concept Brian Green
- Multilevel server concept Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Polls at Kanga.Nu claw@kanga.nu
- Same-Sex Marriage (was: Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens) Ananda Dawnsinger
- Same-Sex Marriage (was: Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens) David Bennett
- Same-Sex Marriage (was: Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens) Matthew Mihaly
- Same-Sex Marriage (was: Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens) Ananda Dawnsinger
- Same-Sex Marriage (was: Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens) J C Lawrence
- Same-Sex Marriage (was: Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens) Ananda Dawnsinger
- Same-Sex Marriage (was: Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens) Jon Lambert
- dealing with foul language Matthew Mihaly
- dealing with foul language Wes Connell
- dealing with foul language Kristen L. Koster
- dealing with foul language Wes Connell
- dealing with foul language Kristen L. Koster
- dealing with foul language Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- dealing with foul language Kristen L. Koster
- dealing with foul language Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- dealing with foul language Kristen L. Koster
- dealing with foul language Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- dealing with foul language Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- dealing with foul language Koster, Raph
- dealing with foul language Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- dealing with foul language Matthew Mihaly
- dealing with foul language Kristen L. Koster
- dealing with foul language Zak Jarvis
- dealing with foul language Darren Henderson
- dealing with foul language Kristen L. Koster
- dealing with foul language AR Schleicher
- dealing with foul language adam@treyarch.com
- Article on Proxes Christopher Allen
- Article on Proxes adam@treyarch.com
- Simulating Ancient Greece WAS: Same-Sex Marriage Zak Jarvis
- Simulating Ancient Greece WAS: Same-Sex Marriage Jon Lambert
- Simulating Ancient Greece WAS: Same-Sex Marriage Matthew Mihaly
- A little essay on economic efficiency Timothy Dang
- Same-Sex Marriage John Hopson
- Same-Sex Marriage Ananda Dawnsinger
- Historical perspective (was: dealing with foul language) Brian Green
- Historical perspective (was: dealing with foul language) Zak Jarvis
- Historical perspective (was: dealing with foul lang uage) Koster, Raph
- Historical perspective (was: dealing with foul language) Brian Green
- Historical perspective (was: dealing with foul language) Joe Andrieu
- Historical perspective (was: dealing with foul language) Matthew Mihaly
- Historical perspective (was: dealing with foul language) Joe Andrieu
- Historical perspective (was: dealing with foul language) adam@treyarch.com
- Historical perspective (was: dealing with foul language) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Historical perspective (was: dealing with foul language) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Historical perspective (was: dealing with foul language) J C Lawrence
- Player controller justice systems David Bennett
- Player controller justice systems Koster, Raph
- Player controller justice systems J C Lawrence
- Player controller justice systems Erik Jarvi
- Player controller justice systems Travis Nixon
- Player controller justice systems Erik Jarvi
- Player controller justice systems Timothy Dang
- Player controller justice systems Draymoor
- Player controller justice systems Erik Jarvi
- Player controller justice systems Phillip Lenhardt
- Player controller justice systems Erik Jarvi
- Family, was characters per account Daniel James
- Family, was characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Family, was characters per account Kevin Littlejohn
- Family, was characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- Family, was characters per account Phillip Lenhardt
- Family, was characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- Family, was characters per account Shawn Halpenny
- Family, was characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- Family, was characters per account Kevin Littlejohn
- Family, was characters per account Kevin Littlejohn
- Family, was characters per account Jeff Freeman
- Family, was characters per account Raph Koster
- Family, was characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- Family, was characters per account Jeff Freeman
- Family, was characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Family, was characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- Family, was characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Family, was characters per account Raph Koster
- Family, was characters per account J C Lawrence
- Family, was characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Family, was characters per account Raph Koster
- Family, was characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Gender Restrictions was Same-Sex Marriage Jon Lambert
- Gender Restrictions was Same-Sex Marriage Nathan F Yospe
- Gender Restrictions was Same-Sex Marriage Jon Lambert
- Family, was characters per account J C Lawrence
- Family, was characters per account Phillip Lenhardt
- Family, was characters per account Kevin Scott London
- Family, was characters per account Jeff Freeman
- Family, was characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites F. Randall Farmer
- Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites maddog@best.com
- Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gamingsites Zak Jarvis
- Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites Ryan Palacio
- Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popu lar gaming sites Sellers, Michael
- Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites maddog@best.com
- Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites Wes Connell
- Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites Ryan Palacio
- Sony to ban sale of online characters from its popular gaming sites Travis Nixon
- [Meta] other activities Par Winzell
- [Meta] other activities Dominic J. Eidson
- [Meta] other activities Jeff Freeman
- History, background and religion Pileborg Joachim - FMT
- History, background and religion Kevin Scott London
- History, background and religion Matthew Mihaly
- History, background and religion Sanvean
- History, background and religion Sharon Mock
- History, background and religion Richard Ross
- History, background and religion Lovecraft
- DGD Description Christopher Allen
- [Meta] other activities Jeff Freeman
- [Meta] other activities Raph Koster
- [Meta] other activities Todd McKimmey
- [Meta] other activities Matthew Mihaly
- [Meta] other activities Wes Connell
- Personal Interest vs. Marketing Decision WAS dealing with foul language Zak Jarvis
- Threads on Meta that should be on MUD-Dev J C Lawrence
- [Meta] Threads on Meta that should be on MUD-Dev J C Lawrence
- Sony to ban sale ... point of view of an eq veteran S. Patrick Gallaty
- Sony to ban sale ... point of view of an eq veteran John Bertoglio
- Sony to ban sale ... point of view of an eq veteran S. Patrick Gallaty
- Family, was characters per account Chris Lloyd
- [LONG] A slightly different perspective on Real money in Virtual worlds. Zak Jarvis
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Frank Crowell
- banning the sale of items Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- banning the sale of items Raph Koster
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Jeff Freeman
- banning the sale of items Jeff Freeman
- banning the sale of items Ryan Palacio
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Ryan Palacio
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Ryan Palacio
- banning the sale of items Tess Lowe
- banning the sale of items Ryan Palacio
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- banning the sale of items Ryan Palacio
- banning the sale of items Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Raph Koster
- banning the sale of items Ryan Palacio
- banning the sale of items Raph Koster
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Schubert, Damion
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Ananda Dawnsinger
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Wes Connell
- banning the sale of items Par Winzell
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Par Winzell
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Zak Jarvis
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Zak Jarvis
- banning the sale of items J. Coleman
- banning the sale of items Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- banning the sale of items Tess Lowe
- banning the sale of items Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- banning the sale of items Christopher Allen
- banning the sale of items Ryan Palacio
- banning the sale of items Kristen L. Koster
- banning the sale of items Christopher Allen
- banning the sale of items Par Winzell
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items J C Lawrence
- banning the sale of items Par Winzell
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items adam@treyarch.com
- banning the sale of items Kevin Littlejohn
- banning the sale of items Raph Koster
- banning the sale of items Raph Koster
- banning the sale of items Matthew Mihaly
- banning the sale of items Kian Wilcox
- banning the sale of items Timothy Dang
- Institutionalizing human behavior (was banning the sale of items) Sellers, Michael
- Institutionalizing human behavior (was banning the sale of items) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Sony to ban sale ... point of view of an eq veteran Brian Green
- Sony to ban sale ... point of view of an eq veteran John Bertoglio
- Sony to ban sale ... point of view of an eq veteran Wes Connell
- Sony to ban sale ... point of view of an eq veteran J C Lawrence
- Sony to ban sale ... point of view of an eq veteran Jeff Freeman
- [Meta] Of general interest maybe Jeff Freeman
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Raph Koster
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Matthew Mihaly
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Jeff Freeman
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Jeff Freeman
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Geoffrey Z.
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Schubert, Damion
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) J C Lawrence
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Nathan F Yospe
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) F. Randall Farmer
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Travis Casey
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Lee Sheldon
- Spawning and quests (was Sony ban) Wes Connell
- DDoS Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- /. Article about EQ sales ban Nathan F Yospe
- /. Article about EQ sales ban Raph Koster
- MudDev FAQ part 2 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ part 2 Ananda Dawnsinger
- MudDev FAQ part 2 Raph Koster
- MudDev FAQ part 2 Dr Richard A. Bartle
- Family, was characters per account Raph Koster
- Institutionalizing human behavior (was banning the sale of items) Xavier Plagnal
- meets Matthew Mihaly
- Quoting. J C Lawrence
- Amy Jo Kim's "Community Building on the Web" Raph Koster
- Amy Jo Kim's "Community Building on the Web" Richard Woolcock
- Amy Jo Kim's "Community Building on the Web" F. Randall Farmer
- Amy Jo Kim's "Community Building on the Web" Sellers, Michael
- Institutionalizing human behavior Matthew Mihaly
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Raph Koster
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Christopher Allen
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Erik Jarvi
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Matthew Mihaly
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars John Bertoglio
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Matthew Mihaly
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Jon Lambert
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Jon Lambert
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Raph Koster
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Jeff Freeman
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Raph Koster
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Travis Casey
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Jeff Freeman
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Eli Stevens
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Raph Koster
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Matthew Mihaly
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Travis Casey
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Raph Koster
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Matthew Mihaly
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Raph Koster
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Travis S. Casey
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Jeff Freeman
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Geoffrey A. MacDougall
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Raph Koster
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Matthew Mihaly
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Travis S. Casey
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Par Winzell
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Raph Koster
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Matthew Mihaly
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Christopher Allen
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Matthew Mihaly
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Par Winzell
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Matthew Mihaly
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Raph Koster
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Matthew Mihaly
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Phillip Lenhardt
- Declaration of the Rights of Avatars Raph Koster
- Spawning and quests Spin
- Spawning and quests Chris Lloyd
- Spawning and quests adam@treyarch.com
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- E3 and potential meet? Ryan Palacio
- E3 and potential meet? J C Lawrence
- Scott Guzman on RGM.Admin J C Lawrence
- Quote from a Simutronics developer Raph Koster
- Quote from a Simutronics developer Ananda Dawnsinger
- Quote from a Simutronics developer Erik Jarvi
- Quote from a Simutronics developer Ryan Palacio
- Quote from a Simutronics developer Erik Jarvi
- Quote from a Simutronics developer Dmitri Zagidulin
- Quote from a Simutronics developer Phillip Lenhardt
- Quote from a Simutronics developer Raph Koster
- Quote from a Simutronics developer Ananda Dawnsinger
- Quests - allocative efficiency Lovecraft
- Common Law [was: Declaration of the Rights of Avatars] Christopher Allen
- Common Law [was: Declaration of the Rights of Avatars] Christopher Allen
- AI, Bots, Scripting. Veygoth
- AI, Bots, Scripting. David Bennett
- Quests Raph Koster
- Alignment Richard Ross
- ADMIN: Digest size J C Lawrence
- Circular Alignment [was: Alignment] Christopher Allen
- Value of Characters [was: Quote from a Simutronics developer] Christopher Allen
- MUD-Dev request rejected Schubert, Damion
- MUD-Dev request rejected John Szeder
- Skotos Proximity System - a Technical Summary (LONG) Christopher Allen
- Skotos Proximity System - a Technical Summary (LONG) Erik Jarvi
- Skotos Proximity System - a Technical Summary (LONG) Christopher Allen
- Skotos Proximity System - a Technical Summary (LONG) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- The scalability of paying for in-game things Matthew Mihaly
- The scalability of paying for in-game things Brian Green
- The scalability of paying for in-game things Matthew Mihaly
- The scalability of paying for in-game things Brian Green
- The scalability of paying for in-game things Par Winzell
- ALife? was [Personal Interest vs. Marketing Decision WAS RE:...] Greg Underwood
- incremental revenue discussion Matthew Mihaly
- new list Kevin Littlejohn
- Justifying twinking Raph Koster
- Justifying twinking adam@treyarch.com
- Justifying twinking Raph Koster
- Justifying twinking adam@treyarch.com
- Justifying twinking Ryan Palacio
- Justifying twinking F. Randall Farmer
- Justifying twinking Ryan Palacio
- Justifying twinking Raph Koster
- Justifying twinking Raph Koster
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mud-dev-admin@kanga.nu [mailto:mud-dev-admin@kanga.nu]On Behalf Of
> Ryan Palacio
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 8:10 PM
> To: mud-dev@kanga.nu
> Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Justifying twinking
>
> is it merely the incentive for
> experienced players to assist newbies, take them under their wing, and
keep
> them playing, or is it the newbies receipt of material goods that get the
> newbies over "the hump"?
That will depend on the game, I'd guess. Is the game dependent on material
goods, or on formation of social ties?
There is no doubt in my mind that we'd all LIKE to make twinking be purely
social ties, and not any goods or equipment. But it'd be pretty hard to
separate the two in existing game designs.
(When I say that twinking isn't a bad thing and should be institutionalized,
I am not suggesting that it would work in your average Diku clone. It would
take designing the game to suit it. The issue is whether the tradeoffs are
worthwhile. My current impression is that they are.)
> In the paragraph above, the use of the words
> "confusing", "directionless", "boring", "monotonous" suggests to me a
> disorientation and/or lack of understanding of the environment. In turn,
> this suggests an "ill-equipped" player, not an "ill-equipped" character.
You'd think so, but you didn't see me try to get out of Qeynos on my first
day--and I am not a novice mudder by any means. :) Not to pick on EQ, of
course. :) We've all seen cases where players expert in muds still use those
terms to describe a new mud they are trying out. The fact is that muds are,
by nature right now, all of those things: confusing because there's a
bewildering array of options (and more every day, because all designers in
the field rightly feel that more options attracts players and retains them
better), directionless (relative to standalone experience), boring (the
pacing of a mud is glacial compared to most forms of entertainment,
certainly to most games), and monotonous (most muds have very repetitive
game mechanics).
The thing about having a better equipped character and a higher level player
to walk you around is that it gives a direction, clears away confusion,
offer a wider range of experiences than you could get alone, and offers
excitement you couldn't get fighting the rats you were supposed to fight.
This doesn't mean that a mud couldn't offer all these things to every
newbie--they just don't, right now. Wish they did!
> Following that logic, it would appear that the learning curve to the
> environment and establishment of a firm footing in the in-game world (be
it
> socially or with regards to the UI) is the issue. I guess I still fail to
> see that inter-level interaction necessitates the transfer of goods, coin,
> or xp. Knowledge is the ultimate resource in any game, and the tranfer of
> this is what should be encouraged.
Agreed there. But let's return to those four issues of boredom, monotony,
confusion, and direction. It's very unlikely that you can give me sufficient
information to solve those four problems when all I have to kill is rats.
Hence players give each other stuff, which CAN solve the problem. They are
being very pragmatic about it. Again, it's not to say that a mud couldn't be
set up so that information was paramount, but it's a much harder nut to
crack than to simply accept the current styles of twinking, I suspect. Love
to see it done, though.
> Let us now side-step to an issue that I believe weighs heavily upon the
> "twinking" thread: Item Importance/Value.
[snip two examples of an item-dependent and a less-item-dependent design]
> I believe these represent two relative extremes, and whereever your own
> game/design fall between these two will determine the ramifications and
> magnitude of potential symptoms. On one hand, you have to minimize
symptoms
> through various forms of restriction to curb high-to-low level item
trading.
> On the other, you have a system where items, in general, lack permanence,
> significant character impact, and significant RL value. (eBay typically
> sells EQ items, and some accounts, whereas the UO selection primarily
> consists of accounts, coin, and housing)
Correct. In most GoP games, two separate areas get the bulk of the
attention: item dependency and level dependency (using level here as an
abstraction to represent stats in general). Obviously, it is easier to twink
items than to twink character level, but both are possible.
There are lots of easily observable issues with dependencies on these two.
FOr one, they represent finite advancement scales, which have a host of
problems; for another, they tend to depend on static data, which has a host
of its own problems.
The question to ask, it seems to me, is whether these are the correct things
on which to put the central emphasis. (Not to say that they shouldn't be
elements, but rather whether they should be the core advancement mechanic of
the game). Now, I don't know an answer, since a) virtually nothing has been
done in the GoP field that isn't this way and b) I'm sure that other ways
have their own hosts of problems that I just don't know much about); but I
am pretty sure that finding advancement ladders distinct from these easily
transferrable goods is a desirable thing--in part because it opens up the
games to a wider audience, in part because it permits institutionalized
twinking, and in part because it does not preclude the traditional
advancement ladders from existing (meaning, you get more advancement ladders
within a single game, increasing game longevity).
The tactics for handling the key issues in a typical GoP design are pretty
well known; on level and item dependency we can pin all of the following
design decisions:
- remort systems
- deathtraps
- PK
- grouping systems
- item level limits
- item align restrictions
- grouping level limits
- scaling XP split systems
etc etc
> Let's not put the cart before the horse here. No doubt the first
impression
> must be significant and intrigue. However, in EQ, many landmark rewards
> (such as viewing - much less killing - a dragon) are representative of
lots
> of invested time and effort. It's a "pay before you pump" system, but not
> to the exclusion of occassionally providing new and intriguing things to
> keep you "on track".
Oh, I am not suggesting that you remove these later rewards. FOr that
matter, even in that example, it might b months before that twinked newbie
even sees a dragon again, especially once he is on his own. There's
something to be said for "I have seen the promised land, and now all I need
to do is play for six months to enter it again!"
> As for the humiliating part, it's all a matter of perception of power.
> Starting by killing goblin whelps, or drudges, or skeletons, or some
> creature perceived as potentially capable of fighting back provides an
> initial level of power greater than that garnered by killing
> rats, bunnies, etc.
Yes; although players are not stupid, and will quickly realize that a rat
that happens to look like an orc king is still a rat.
>
> > What more welcoming thing is there than to get outfitted like a hero,
> handed
> > thousands of gold pieces, and invited along to kill a [insert
> critter you
> > couldn't possibly tackle solo]? [snip...]
>
> Doing it myself and having a complete self-satisfaction that I was able to
> achieve it alone as compared to the "twinks" that needed
> friends/help to do it. Call me masochistic. But I personally enjoy the
trials and
> tribulations each level or trial has to offer. And in the end, I know
that
> everything I accomplished or acquired was through my own hardships and
> conquerings thereof. I have a pride in myself (RL) as well as my
> character.
I said "welcoming." :) Not overall eventual satisfaction. After all, even
with institutionalized twinking, you are free to refuse the assistance.
Unless you feel that you are somehow competing with otehrs in terms of
advancement rates or access to stuff (that they are somehow beating you or
better than you ni standing because they were twinked), who cares if twinked
and non-twinked players co-exist?
Players do seem to care, though. Why? The answer is, I suspect, "because the
game system cares." If we can fix that so that you don't feel like it's
unfair to you for someone else to accept aid, then we could extend that
advantage institutionally and gain player retention.
> > So twinking, to a point, actually extends player longevity. Now, if your
> > game system is such that someone being twinked basically runs
> through all
> of
> > your game data in a far shorter timespan, then leaves, then
> yes, you have
> a
> > problem. But that means that the problem lies with your game system, and
> not
> > with the very natural tendency of humans to assist friends who are less
> > fortunate.
>
> I disagree with this overall. Let me turn this around a little bit.
>
> "Does average Joe Gamer consistantly 'complete', 'finish', or 'win' the
> majority of single-player titles he/she owns if the difficulty
> level exceeds his/her _initial_ skill level?"
The average Joe Gamer does not complete, finish, or win ANY titles, is my
impression.
My play pattern is that of a "casual gamer" -- not "mass market" but who
likes games, picks up a few a year, and plays them. I got to the third
scenario on Populous, and may play again. I stopped at the second (yes,
second) mission in Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun, because it was too hard.
I got halfway through Half-Life, first mission in Rollercoaster Tycoon... I
found Total Annihilation and Starcraft both, when shown them by an advanced
player, to be too complicated for me to bother with. I resort to
walkthroughs for console games regularly.
(Only reason my game list is so long is because I got many free from work,
btw. I _buy_ less than 5 games a year. Usually 1 or 2 for me, 1 or 2 as
gifts for my wife.
And I am WAY more hardcore than my wife is.
> If to the latter one answers "yes", you cannot help Joe Gamer unless you
> provide them a dedicated baby-sitter.
They're called "friends." :) Seriously, a social support network in the game
will in fact do this for that player who needs the support.
> The game will ultimately become "too
> hard" for them and they will leave unless cared for constantly.
Only if a) that aspect of the game is the only thing the game defines as
mattering, and b) if there is a *need* of some sort to keep advancing (eg,
you can't decide to just stay put at that level of achievement and muddle
along as you have been). Neither of those need to be true, and b) in
particular can be pernicious, because it DOES chase away players.
> And since
> noone likes a leech, Joe Gamer will not have friends very long and will
> decide to quit.
Whoa--it's a stretch from "needs assistance on one particular advancement
ladder" to "is a leech." It betrays a direct focus on the game's primary
ladder as the only thing that counts--and it's a cultural thing within a
game, not only a game design issue.
Let's take the case of Marian the Tailor. Is she a leech because whenever
she wants to play the hack n slash part of the game, she needs assistance?
Every time Bubba the Triple Threat Tank wants to play the social game, HE'S
a leech. To bring it into a more traditional class-based hack n slash model,
consider the same scenario (that so often occurs) with healers and tanks.
This multiplicity of roles exists even in games wherein there is no overt
recognition of them by the game system. It's pernicious for one role to
assume such complete primacy that the other roles are seen merely as
leeches--that's why class balance is such a big deal in systems like that.
> "Help" _should_ primarily involve knowledge and social association.
Agreed, cf my reply to Adam.
> If I can't complete Quake III on medium, I am not about
> to try and complete it on hard or impossible difficulty.
If you were twinked to max level, you DID complete it on medium. Whereupon
you might well go ahead and try it on hard. :)
> I also don't get my
> friend to come over and complete a specific level for me.
Interesting. I do this all the time. I also see enough references to it in
other media (comic strips, a "Felicity" episode, hell, even that execrable
X-Files episode) that I believe it to be commonplace. ("Hey Fred, can you
come over and show me how to beat the 12th boss on the satellite level? I
wanna see the end movie.")
In fact, I think it is a driving factor behind the socialization model of
console games. The way we always played them was to pass the controller
around at every death or something, until we had collaboratively beaten the
entire game. When some of the friends I had been playing Crash 2 with went
and finished it on their own, I actually abandoned playing the game feeling
it had become pointless--they had gone ahead and done it, why should I
bother? I was enjoying the mutually-twinked ride (particularly twinked, in
my case!) way more than I was enjoying the challenge.
> That would be
> pointless as I would be effectively turning the game over to my friend
> permanently (assuming progressional increase in difficulty).
I don't know any games that have a perfect linear increase in difficulty for
every player of every skill level. They tend to have dips and peaks; it's
the principle behind having "boss" monsters after all.
> I believe the largest percentage
> of twinking in EQ occurs with "secondary" (or later) characters. The
> purpose is to make it "easier", and therefore "faster", and/or attempt to
> skip content the second time around. I guess this in itself could hold a
> message.
Oh yes. The common refrain here is, "the game doesn't really start until
level x." The common design answer is, "we should just start the game at
level x" which doesn't really work--some people really do need x-10 through
x-1, for one thing, and for another, it's likely that the game that is
starting at level x has little to do with level X per se, and more to do
with other subgames or complexities that happen to develop alongside the
standard advancement ladder around the time when you reach level x (say,
your combat model doesn't have sufficient complexity to interest a hardcore
hack n slasher because until level x, the smaller range of available skills,
magic items, and special attacks is too small to provide sufficient tactical
interest to an advanced player. The advancement ladder here is NOT reaching
level x+1, but exploring and mastering the intricacies of the combat
mechanic--it just happens to result on XP applied back to the level system).
> I do not feel that twinking as
> necessarily bad, but that the stance on twinking taken by a development
team
> is completely situational and based on the individual project's game
design
> and "vision" philosophy.
Certainly. For any given game, the answer is going to vary. The statement I
made was that twinking itself, as a mode of operation and as a mechanic, is
a good thing and deserves to be institutionalized. That says nothing abotu
how well it would work in existing game designs. I am thinking more about
future game designs. Currently, the general assumption is that twinking is
bad. I like to question assumptions. :)
-Raph - Justifying twinking Todd McKimmey
- Justifying twinking Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- Justifying twinking Jeff Freeman
- Justifying twinking Schubert, Damion
- Justifying twinking Lee Sheldon
- Justifying twinking adam@treyarch.com
- Justifying twinking Lee Sheldon
- Justifying twinking Travis S. Casey
- Justifying twinking John Bertoglio
- Justifying twinking Travis Nixon
- Justifying twinking Lee Sheldon
- Justifying twinking Travis S. Casey
- Justifying twinking Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Justifying twinking Christopher Allen
- Justifying twinking J C Lawrence
- Justifying twinking adam@treyarch.com
- Justifying twinking Christopher Allen
- Justifying twinking Travis Casey
- Justifying twinking Lee Sheldon
- Justifying twinking Sellers, Michael
- Justifying twinking Mud Imp
- Justifying twinking Brian Green
- Justifying twinking John Bertoglio
- Justifying twinking Ananda Dawnsinger
- Justifying twinking Christopher Allen
- Justifying twinking Travis Casey
- Justifying twinking Timothy Dang
- Justifying twinking jolson@micron.net
- Justifying twinking Travis Nixon
- Justifying twinking John Bertoglio
- Justifying twinking jolson@micron.net
- Justifying twinking Raph Koster
- Justifying twinking Christopher Allen
- Justifying twinking Schubert, Damion
- Justifying twinking adam@treyarch.com
- Justifying twinking Christopher Allen
- Justifying twinking adam@treyarch.com
- Justifying twinking Geoffrey Z.
- Justifying twinking Justin Lockshaw
- Justifying twinking Raph Koster
- Justifying twinking S. Patrick Gallaty
- Justifying twinking Frank Crowell
- Justifying twinking Lee Sheldon
- Justifying twinking Lee Sheldon
- Game Law Example (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Game Law Example (fwd) Travis S. Casey
- Fun and Learning in games Draymoor
- Fun and Learning in games Schubert, Damion
- Fun and Learning in games adam@treyarch.com
- Re PRIVATE Justifying twinking Kristen L. Koster
- Re PRIVATE Justifying twinking Josh Olson
- Database back ends dwacks@saleslogix.com
- Database back ends Greg Underwood
- Database back ends Quiet
- Database back ends Kevin Littlejohn
- defeating twinking through game mechanics S. Patrick Gallaty
- defeating twinking through game mechanics jolson@micron.net
- defeating twinking through game mechanics adam@treyarch.com
- defeating twinking through game mechanics S. Patrick Gallaty
- defeating twinking through game mechanics Erik Jarvi
- defeating twinking through game mechanics Travis S. Casey
- defeating twinking through game mechanics Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- defeating twinking through game mechanics Travis Casey
- defeating twinking through game mechanics Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- defeating twinking through game mechanics J C Lawrence
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Timothy Dang
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" F. Randall Farmer
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Christopher Allen
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Raph Koster
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Timothy Dang
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Timothy Dang
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Brian Green
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" adam@treyarch.com
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Timothy Dang
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Ananda Dawnsinger
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Charles Hughes
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Raph Koster
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Sellers, Michael
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Raph Koster
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Charles Hughes
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" adam@treyarch.com
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" stoddart@slip.net
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Eli Stevens
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" Raph Koster
- Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO" PLAGNAL XAVIER
- Massive Connections Christopher Kohnert
- Massive Connections Kevin Scott London
- Massive Connections Christopher Kohnert
- MUD-Dev request rejected Jeff Freeman
- interesting article on world size and finance Fred Clift
- interesting article on world size and finance J C Lawrence
- interesting article on world size and finance John Bertoglio
- [Mud-Dev]: Sushi Mud Todd McKimmey
- [Mud-Dev]: Sushi Mud guru@thebay.plus.com
- LA Times article: Virtual Loot for Real Cash Ryan Palacio
- LA Times article: Virtual Loot for Real Cash J C Lawrence
- Alignment (very long) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Alignment (very long) Christopher Allen
- Alignment (very long) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Alignment (very long) Kevin Littlejohn
- Alignment (very long) Travis Casey
- Alignment (very long) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Character persistance, was Family, was characters per account JC
- Character persistance, was Family, was characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd) J C Lawrence
- shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd) Charles
- shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd) J C Lawrence
- shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd) Chris Jacobson
- shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd) Richard Ross
- shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd) Lee Sheldon
- shrink wrapped mud development kit (fwd) Matt Chatterley
- BioWare to demonstrate Neverwinter Nights at E3 F. Randall Farmer
- BioWare to demonstrate Neverwinter Nights at E3 Jeff Freeman
- BioWare to demonstrate Neverwinter Nights at E3 Travis Casey
- ColdStore. Belated response from a developer. colin@field.medicine.adelaide.edu.au
- ColdStore. Belated response from a developer. Miroslav Silovic
- ColdStore. Belated response from a developer. Jay Carlson
- ColdStore. Belated response from a developer. colin@field.medicine.adelaide.edu.au
- [Meta] Ex-Origin Employees to new Verant studio Eli Stevens
- Game Spec Jman77777@aol.com
- From banning the sale of items to virtual slavery... Stéphane Garin
- Search engine and thread managing Stéphane Garin
- Search engine and thread managing J C Lawrence
- LED0 Frank Crowell
- Re[4]: defeating twinking through game mechanics Travis Casey
- MUME poll results (fwd) J C Lawrence
- MUME poll results (fwd) Christopher Allen
- MUME poll results (fwd) Raph Koster
- MUME poll results (fwd) Charles Hughes
- MUME poll results (fwd) Eric Olsen
- MUME poll results (fwd) Charles Hughes
- selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- selling Godhoods J C Lawrence
- selling Godhoods Chris Jacobson
- selling Godhoods Ananda Dawnsinger
- selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- selling Godhoods Ananda Dawnsinger
- selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- selling Godhoods Ananda Dawnsinger
- selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- selling Godhoods Phillip Lenhardt
- selling Godhoods Ananda Dawnsinger
- selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- selling Godhoods Darren Henderson
- selling Godhoods J C Lawrence
- selling Godhoods Raph Koster
- selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- selling Godhoods Darren Henderson
- selling Godhoods Tess Lowe
- selling Godhoods Ananda Dawnsinger
- selling Godhoods Richard Woolcock
- selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- selling Godhoods Richard Woolcock
- selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- selling Godhoods J C Lawrence
- selling Godhoods Tess Lowe
- selling Godhoods Richard Woolcock
- Selling Godhoods!?! Larvenz
- selling Godhoods Par Winzell
- selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- Selling Godhoods!?! Par Winzell
- Selling Godhoods!?! Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- selling Godhoods Jeff Freeman
- Selling Godhoods!?! Mud Imp
- Selling Godhoods!?! J C Lawrence
- Selling Godhoods!?! Kevin Scott London
- Selling Godhoods!?! Christopher Kohnert
- Selling Godhoods!?! Kevin Scott London
- Selling Godhoods!?! Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- selling Godhoods J C Lawrence
- selling Godhoods Raph Koster
- selling Godhoods Ananda Dawnsinger
- selling Godhoods Raph Koster
- selling Godhoods Laurent Bossavit
- selling Godhoods lapsos
- selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- selling Godhoods Par Winzell
- moving advancement away from experience Eli Stevens
- moving advancement away from experience Travis Casey
- moving advancement away from experience Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- moving advancement away from experience Lee Sheldon
- E3 and exhibit/session passes (follow-ups to Meta) Sellers, Michael
- attracting players Mud Imp
- attracting players Richard Woolcock
- attracting players Chris Lloyd
- Attracting players Koster, Raph
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Chris Lloyd
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Christopher Allen
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Schubert, Damion
- Self-Sufficient Worlds John Bertoglio
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Quzah
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Phillip Lenhardt
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Mordengaard
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Chris Turner
- Self-Sufficient Worlds lapsos
- Self-Sufficient Worlds F. Randall Farmer
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Chad Arnold
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Sellers, Michael
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Chris Lloyd
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Raph Koster
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Raph Koster
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Raph Koster
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Zak Jarvis
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Zak Jarvis
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Zak Jarvis
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Raph Koster
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Zak Jarvis
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds J C Lawrence
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Matthew Mihaly
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Sellers, Michael
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Zak Jarvis
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Zak Jarvis
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Powell, Warren
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Lee Sheldon
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Zak Jarvis
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Angela Ferraiolo
- Self-Sufficient Worlds Zak Jarvis
- Self-Sufficient Worlds J C Lawrence
- Addressing newbies (was: attracting players) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Addressing newbies (was: attracting players) Jerry Hill
- Addressing newbies (was: attracting players) adam@treyarch.com
- Addressing newbies (was: attracting players) adam@treyarch.com
- reaction to selling godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- reaction to selling godhoods Kevin Scott London
- Crafts Systems (was:Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO") Ananda Dawnsinger
- Crafts Systems (was:Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO") Raph Koster
- Crafts Systems (was:Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO") Charles Hughes
- Crafts Systems (was:Simpson's "In-Game Economics of UO") Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- datagrams Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- a article on ai -- ANTS -- (fwd) J C Lawrence
- FW: selling Godhoods John Bertoglio
- FW: selling Godhoods Matthew Mihaly
- Skotos Bulk System - a Technical Summary (LONG) Christopher Allen
- "The client is in the hands of the enemy" Schubert, Damion
- "The client is in the hands of the enemy" Zak Jarvis
- "The client is in the hands of the enemy" Kevin Littlejohn
- Procedural Storytelling WAS Self-Sufficient Worlds Zak Jarvis
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Zak Jarvis
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling J C Lawrence
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Raph Koster
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling rob@cs.nwu.edu
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Brandon J. Rickman
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Travis Nixon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling J C Lawrence
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Travis Nixon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Raph Koster
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Lee Sheldon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Marian Griffith
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Lee Sheldon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Zak Jarvis
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Brandon J. Rickman
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Travis Nixon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Brandon J. Rickman
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Lee Sheldon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Brandon J. Rickman
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Lee Sheldon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Travis Nixon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Brian Green
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Travis Nixon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Sam Axon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Travis Nixon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Brian Green
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Kevin Littlejohn
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Lee Sheldon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Angela Ferraiolo
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Lee Sheldon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Erik Jarvi
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Lee Sheldon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Nathan F Yospe
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Lee Sheldon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Erik Jarvi
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Nathan F Yospe
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Raph Koster
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Batir
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Raph Koster
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Brandon J. Rickman
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Kristen L. Koster
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Batir
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Raph Koster
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Charles Hughes
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Erik Jarvi
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Brandon J. Rickman
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Matthew Mihaly
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Lee Sheldon
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Brandon J. Rickman
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Matthew Mihaly
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Joe Andrieu
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Rawlings@aol.com
- A footnote to Procedural Storytelling Brandon J. Rickman