March 2000
- Portal Matthew Mihaly
- randomly dropped connections Matthew Mihaly
- randomly dropped connections cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- randomly dropped connections Ben Greear
- randomly dropped connections J C Lawrence
- randomly dropped connections adam@treyarch.com
- randomly dropped connections Kevin Littlejohn
- Mud Network Setup Jon A. Lambert
- Mud Network Setup adam@treyarch.com
- Mud Network Setup J C Lawrence
- Mud Network Setup David Bennett
- Mud Network Setup Todd McKimmey
- Mud Network Setup David Bennett
- Mud Network Setup J C Lawrence
- Mud Network Setup adam@treyarch.com
- Mud Network Setup Jon A. Lambert
- Mud Network Setup J C Lawrence
- Mud Network Setup Emil Eifrem
- Mud Network Setup Dominic J. Eidson
- Mud Network Setup Emil Eifrem
- Mud Network Setup Eli Stevens {Grey}
- Mud Network Setup Todd McKimmey
- Mud Network Setup adam@treyarch.com
- Mud Network Setup cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- Mud Network Setup Steve Boleware
- Mud Network Setup Joe Andrieu
- Mud Network Setup John Bertoglio
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? claw@kanga.nu
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? adam@treyarch.com
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? 송재경
- Processor Usage Christopher Kohnert
- Processor Usage J C Lawrence
- Processor Usage Dominic J. Eidson
- Processor Usage Ben Greear
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #298 - 11 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- MUD timeline Jon Leonard
- MUD timeline Richard Woolcock
- MUD timeline J C Lawrence
- MUD timeline Kristen L. Koster
- MUD timeline Kristen L. Koster
- MUD timeline Lovecraft
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline AR Schleicher
- MUD timeline Matthew Mihaly
- MUD timeline Matthew Mihaly
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline Dundee
- MUD timeline Darrin Hyrup
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline Moreland, John
- MUD timeline Darrin Hyrup
- MUD timeline jkerr@htech.withoutthisstuff.com
- MUD timeline __Deric___@yahoo.com
- MUD timeline Darrin Hyrup
- MUD timeline Erik Jarvi
- MUD timeline Travis Casey
- MUD timeline Jon A. Lambert
- MUD timeline Travis Casey
- MUD timeline Jon A. Lambert
- MUD timeline Travis Casey
- MUD timeline Bruce
- MUD timeline Daniel A. Koepke
- MUD timeline cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- MUD timeline Dr Richard A. Bartle
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- MUD timeline Sellers, Michael
- MUD timeline Jon Whitehouse
- MUD timeline Derek Snider
- MUD timeline J C Lawrence
- MUD timeline Sellers, Michael
- MUD timeline Matthew Mihaly
- MUD timeline J C Lawrence
- MUD timeline Ryan Palacio
- Mud Timeline Darrell Michaud
- Mud Timeline Klimon, Ian
- Mud Timeline Matt Mihaly
- ADMIN: Ooops, damn... J C Lawrence
- FW: MUD timeline Daniel James
- MUD timeline F. Randall Farmer
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #298 - 11 msgs Koster, Raph
- Skotos Website Up Christopher Allen
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Joe Andrieu
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Joe Andrieu
- CGDC dinner Koster, Raph
- CGDC dinner Bruce
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Derek Snider
- CGDC dinner Ryan Palacio
- CGDC dinner Koster, Raph
- CGDC dinner Sellers, Michael
- CGDC dinner Derek Snider
- CGDC dinner Joel Dillon
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Emil Eifrem
- CGDC dinner Richard Ross
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Wes Connell
- CGDC dinner Suess123@aol.com
- CGDC dinner Joel Dillon
- ADMIN: Posting delays J C Lawrence
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript Laurel Fan
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript Bruce
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript Bruce
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #302 - 6 msgs Dr. Cat
- Admin: Corrections, data loss, and interruptions in service. J C Lawrence
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Greg Underwood
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Wes Connell
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Kristen L. Koster
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Greg Underwood
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws David Bennett
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws J C Lawrence
- (OT) Admin: Library memberships J C Lawrence
- Open Source Online Gaming Aaron Mitchell
- Open Source Online Gaming Koster, Raph
- Open Source Online Gaming Bryce Harrington
- Open Source Online Gaming Bruce
- Open Source Online Gaming J C Lawrence
- Open Source Online Gaming Bryce Harrington
- Open Source Online Gaming Ryan
- Open Source Online Gaming Erik Jarvi
- Open Source Online Gaming Derek Snider
- Open Source Online Gaming Aaron Mitchell
- GDC Dinner Matthew Mihaly
- GDC Dinner Justin Rogers
- ADMIN: looking for work? J C Lawrence
- [OT] Sound in games Erik Jarvi
- [OT] Sound in games Koster, Raph
- politics J C Lawrence
- Have openings Gary Whitten
- HTML as a MUD client . . . was javascript John Bertoglio
- ADMIN: Kanga.Nu will be moving (again) J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: Lost mail? J C Lawrence
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] Lovecraft
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] John Bertoglio
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] Joel Kelso
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] adam@treyarch.com
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Dynamic Load Balancing Kevin Scott London
- Open Source Environments (was: Open Source Online Gaming) scott guzman
- Open Source Environments (was: Open Source Online Gaming) Nathan F Yospe
- Fw: [RRE]MediaMOO birthday Celebration, March 20th 2000!!! Bruce
- Open Source Environments scott guzman
- MudDev FAQ part 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ part 1 Todd McKimmey
- MudDev FAQ part 1 Marian Griffith
- MUD Dev FAQ part 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ part II Marian Griffith
- Questions about the MudDev FAQ Marian Griffith
- Open Gaming? J C Lawrence
- Open Source Environments / MacOS X J C Lawrence
- Open Source Environments / MacOS X Chris Jacobson
- Star Wars gmud? Nathan F Yospe
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] J C Lawrence
- [CODE] unique items J. Coleman
- [CODE] unique items Draymoor
- [CODE] unique items cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- [CODE] unique items Matthew Mihaly
- [CODE] unique items Quzah
- [CODE] unique items J. Coleman
- [CODE] unique items Ben Greear
- [CODE] unique items Kevin Scott London
- [CODE] unique items Lord Ashon
- [CODE] unique items Marc Bowden
- [CODE] unique items J C Lawrence
- Kanga.Nu has a new IP J C Lawrence
- Licensing and Clauses Chris Jacobson
- The Meta list is now open and active. J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Par Winzell
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Phillip Lenhardt
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Phillip Lenhardt
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really nec essary? Koster, Raph
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really nec essary? Nathan F Yospe
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Draymoor
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? scott guzman
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Chris Jones
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Dr Richard A. Bartle
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Lazarus
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Phillip Lenhardt
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Brandon J. Rickman
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Marian Griffith
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really nec essary? Brian Ashburn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Par Winzell
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? adam@treyarch.com
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Matthew Mihaly
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Draymoor
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Vijay Weasel Prabhakar
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems J C Lawrence
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems adam@treyarch.com
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Dundee
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems David Bennett
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Wes Connell
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Fred Clift
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Draymoor
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Ananda Dawnsinger
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Todd McKimmey
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems AR Schleicher
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Wes Connell
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- (fwd) mud.design.ideas Nathan Fenenga Yospe
- Command interface for Coordinate based world WriterDL@aol.com
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Draymoor
- Command interface for Coordinate based world adam@treyarch.com
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Nathan F Yospe
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Vijay Weasel Prabhakar
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Jeremy Noetzelman
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Laurel Fan
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Lovecraft
- ADMIN: Moving house and posting delays J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #18 - 17 msgs Dr. Cat
- Embedding C/C++ Draymoor
- Embedding C/C++ Justin Rogers
- Embedding C/C++ J C Lawrence
- multiplaying Tess Lowe
- multiplaying Lovecraft
- multiplaying Wes Connell
- Online Justice Systems scott guzman
- Online Justice Systems Matthew Mihaly
- Online Justice Systems J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Wes Connell
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Wes Connell
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Marc Bowden
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens adam@treyarch.com
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Rasdan
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Par Winzell
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Todd McKimmey
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Todd McKimmey
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Dan Shiovitz
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Chris Jones
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Dundee
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Zak Jarvis
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Todd McKimmey
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Fred Clift
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Gunnar Kreitz
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Ananda Dawnsinger
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Kevin Scott London
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Marc Bowden
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon A. Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens adam@treyarch.com
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon A. Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Par Winzell
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Kristen L. Koster
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Tess Lowe
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Tess Lowe
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Joe Andrieu
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Chris Lloyd
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens David Bennett
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Chris Lloyd
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Zak Jarvis
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Zak Jarvis
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Par Winzell
- Online Justice Systems (response to J C) J C Lawrence
- Online Justice Systems (response to J C) scott guzman
- Meta: Questions about the MudDev FAQ Jon A. Lambert
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Aaron Leslie
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Baldur Norddahl
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Chris Jacobson
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Lovecraft
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Tess Lowe
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Kevin Scott London
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Sellers, Michael
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Kevin Scott London
- Object and class hierarchies -- are they really necessary? Christopher Allen
- ScryMUD 2.0.11 released. Ben Greear
- ADMIN: Spam filters and being unsubscribed J C Lawrence
- World and History Creation Ling
- characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- characters per account F. Randall Farmer
- characters per account Jeff Freeman
- characters per account Sellers, Michael
- characters per account LexaH@aol.com
- characters per account Jeff Freeman
- characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- characters per account AR Schleicher
- characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- characters per account AR Schleicher
- characters per account John Bertoglio
- characters per account Sayeed
- characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- characters per account Sayeed
- characters per account Brian Green
Sayeed wrote:
>
> Matthew wrote:
> >This is the third time I've seen someone bring this up in this
> >thread, and it's the third time I'll say it, "People will simply buy
> >multiple accounts." I've certainly done it.
>
> Likewise, this is also the third time I've brought it up. In
> a balanced single character/account system, the majority of
> people will not buy multiple accounts. I've clearly explained
> WHY not in the post below:
> RE: [MUD-Dev] Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems
> -Sayeed, dated 3/27/00
I don't remember getting the original, so I've referred to the archives.
> You may wish to go back and read it, because
> without justification, the statement that "players will buy more
> accounts" in a single-character system is an assertion. 'Why
> will they buy more?' is the key question. A common answer
> to this is that characters appear more valuable because of:
>
> A) Price-Related Value
> B) In-Game Value
First, I have to disagree with a few of your assumptions in the original
post. I'm paraphrasing the original post for the most part.
I disagree that a single character per account will reduce the demand
for multiple accounts. The value of a second account is what it can
provide me, and I will compare that to the cost of buying that second
account. If I think that a second account saves me $50 (EG, time spent)
each month, then I will be willing to buy a second account until the
cost to purchase the account is more than $50.
Note that the economics of this get very sticky, because this may not be
the value I assign to my first account, or even the value I initially
assigned to my first account. Perhaps I thought the entertainment value
of an account was only worth $10/month originally. After a year, I
viewed my account as a $120 investment I'm willing to pay $20 to
maintain and enjoy, but a second account might save me $50/month of my
time I would otherwise "waste" on my primary account! (Confused yet?)
You state that by raising the price, less people will want to buy a
second account. I can tell you from experience this is false. Meridian
59 used to charge up to $30 per month per account of only two players on
a single server. The actual cost varied depending a rather confusing
function of time played, which I will not go into here. Even with an
on-average greater expense per month, I don't doubt we had about the
same percentage of players that had second accounts that UO does.
If you think about it, it make sense. If you charge more, then you are
going to attract customers that can afford to pay more. If they can
afford to buy one account, then the majority of your regular players can
probably afford to buy a second account. If a second account gives a
large bonus to play, then your demand curve become the demand *for two
accounts* instead of one. Raising the price might price out a serious
player that cannot afford the costs of two accounts.
You also propose that multiple accounts reduces the value of each
account, so it makes sense for players to not want multiple accounts
because it dilutes the real value. This is obviously false, as anyone
familiar with the "tragedy of the commons" knows. The player gains
gameplay advantages by purchasing a second account, even if it slightly
reduces the value of other accounts (including those already owned).
The question becomes: is the value of what I am getting more than the
value of what I am giving up? For most people, the answer is yes,
because initially it gives a competitive edge, and eventually it becomes
a competitive disadvantage to not have the additional accounts.
So, how can you eliminate in-game bonuses for having a second account?
I'm of the opinion that you cannot. The two main considerations for
getting a second account are the value of time saved and value of
extended abilities.
The value of time saved explains item creators. It takes me time and
effort to gather game resources (EG, money) and to find someone who can
make a specific item for me. If I can create the item with a second
character, I can save time and money. Why? Because, for worthwhile
items, the cost of producing a good should be less than the value of the
item (not necessarily what it can be sold for to NPCs) in a working game
economy. That means I will generally spend less time making the item
than I do overall buying the item in most cases. For more affluent
players, the value of the time saved is great, likely greater than the
price of a second account for most games. In addition, I can use the
second character to create items to sell, and provide my primary
character with more money (which saves more time having to do something
else to earn it).
The problem is, if you make trade skills take more time or money then
you effectively eliminate any in-game bonuses for being a craftsperson
if the cost of producing an item is greater than the value of the item.
If this is the case, whole sections of your game are going to be ignored
by people who want to do something profitable in the game with their
time; this is never a sound design decision.
You can also apply this to other areas, such as reputation. If I want
to be a vicious PKer, but I've spent time making my primary character a
goody-two-shoes, I will buy a second account if it allows me to save the
time invested in building the good reptuation of my primary character.
Value of extended abilities explains holding mules. Most games put a
limit on the items you can store. Sure, I could "hire" out another
person to hold my stuff for me, but is anyone going to want to waste
their character like that? Probably not for less than the price of an
account! If you give players infinite storage you might eliminate this
problem, but you could introduce other problems (such as bloated
databases, etc).
You can also apply this reasoning to skill-based systems that limit what
skills you can learn, explaining again why people will create item
creation mules. I'm sure most people on this list can explain why
allowing every player to learn every skill is bad design. While some
people will find others to fill in holes in their skill, some people
will see a second account as a cheaper alternative.
Even if you could reduce in-game benefits of a second account, would you
really eliminate enough of the second accounts to make a difference?
Raph's original point you replied to was "Fewer doesn't mean too few to
cause the problem." If you have to pour extra work without the payoff
of eliminating or even significantly reducing the problem, is it worth
it? Probably not.
Comments welcomed.
--
"And I now wait / to shake the hand of fate...." -"Defender", Manowar
Brian Green, brian@psychochild.org aka Psychochild
|\ _,,,---,,_ *=* Morpheus, my kitten, says "Hi!" *=*
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_
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'---''(_/--' `-'\_) -The_Onion_, August 4th, 1999 - characters per account Timothy Dang
- characters per account F. Randall Farmer
- characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- characters per account Kristen L. Koster
- characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- characters per account Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- characters per account Timothy Dang
- characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- characters per account Darren Henderson
- characters per account adam@treyarch.com
- characters per account Brian Green
- characters per account Jon Lambert
- characters per account Darren Henderson
- characters per account J C Lawrence
- characters per account Zak Jarvis
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project Matthew Mihaly
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project Sellers, Michael
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project skeptack
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project skeptack
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project AR Schleicher
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project Jeff Freeman
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project Brian Green
- Debugging techniques adam@treyarch.com
- Lord British gone Geoffrey A. MacDougall