March 2000
- Portal Matthew Mihaly
- randomly dropped connections Matthew Mihaly
- randomly dropped connections cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- randomly dropped connections Ben Greear
- randomly dropped connections J C Lawrence
- randomly dropped connections adam@treyarch.com
- randomly dropped connections Kevin Littlejohn
- Mud Network Setup Jon A. Lambert
- Mud Network Setup adam@treyarch.com
- Mud Network Setup J C Lawrence
- Mud Network Setup David Bennett
- Mud Network Setup Todd McKimmey
- Mud Network Setup David Bennett
- Mud Network Setup J C Lawrence
- Mud Network Setup adam@treyarch.com
- Mud Network Setup Jon A. Lambert
- Mud Network Setup J C Lawrence
- Mud Network Setup Emil Eifrem
- Mud Network Setup Dominic J. Eidson
- Mud Network Setup Emil Eifrem
- Mud Network Setup Eli Stevens {Grey}
- Mud Network Setup Todd McKimmey
- Mud Network Setup adam@treyarch.com
- Mud Network Setup cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- Mud Network Setup Steve Boleware
- Mud Network Setup Joe Andrieu
- Mud Network Setup John Bertoglio
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? claw@kanga.nu
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? adam@treyarch.com
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? 송재경
- Processor Usage Christopher Kohnert
- Processor Usage J C Lawrence
- Processor Usage Dominic J. Eidson
- Processor Usage Ben Greear
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #298 - 11 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- MUD timeline Jon Leonard
- MUD timeline Richard Woolcock
- MUD timeline J C Lawrence
- MUD timeline Kristen L. Koster
- MUD timeline Kristen L. Koster
- MUD timeline Lovecraft
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
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- MUD timeline Matthew Mihaly
- MUD timeline Matthew Mihaly
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- MUD timeline Darrin Hyrup
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- MUD timeline Travis Casey
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- MUD timeline Bruce
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- MUD timeline cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
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- MUD timeline Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
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- MUD timeline Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- MUD timeline Sellers, Michael
- MUD timeline Jon Whitehouse
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- MUD timeline J C Lawrence
- MUD timeline Sellers, Michael
- MUD timeline Matthew Mihaly
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- MUD timeline Ryan Palacio
- Mud Timeline Darrell Michaud
- Mud Timeline Klimon, Ian
- Mud Timeline Matt Mihaly
- ADMIN: Ooops, damn... J C Lawrence
- FW: MUD timeline Daniel James
- MUD timeline F. Randall Farmer
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #298 - 11 msgs Koster, Raph
- Skotos Website Up Christopher Allen
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Joe Andrieu
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Joe Andrieu
- CGDC dinner Koster, Raph
- CGDC dinner Bruce
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Derek Snider
- CGDC dinner Ryan Palacio
- CGDC dinner Koster, Raph
- CGDC dinner Sellers, Michael
- CGDC dinner Derek Snider
- CGDC dinner Joel Dillon
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Emil Eifrem
- CGDC dinner Richard Ross
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Wes Connell
- CGDC dinner Suess123@aol.com
- CGDC dinner Joel Dillon
- ADMIN: Posting delays J C Lawrence
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript Laurel Fan
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript Bruce
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript Bruce
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #302 - 6 msgs Dr. Cat
- Admin: Corrections, data loss, and interruptions in service. J C Lawrence
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Greg Underwood
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Wes Connell
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Kristen L. Koster
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Greg Underwood
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws David Bennett
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws J C Lawrence
- (OT) Admin: Library memberships J C Lawrence
- Open Source Online Gaming Aaron Mitchell
- Open Source Online Gaming Koster, Raph
- Open Source Online Gaming Bryce Harrington
- Open Source Online Gaming Bruce
- Open Source Online Gaming J C Lawrence
- Open Source Online Gaming Bryce Harrington
- Open Source Online Gaming Ryan
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- Open Source Online Gaming Derek Snider
- Open Source Online Gaming Aaron Mitchell
- GDC Dinner Matthew Mihaly
- GDC Dinner Justin Rogers
- ADMIN: looking for work? J C Lawrence
- [OT] Sound in games Erik Jarvi
- [OT] Sound in games Koster, Raph
- politics J C Lawrence
- Have openings Gary Whitten
- HTML as a MUD client . . . was javascript John Bertoglio
- ADMIN: Kanga.Nu will be moving (again) J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: Lost mail? J C Lawrence
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] Lovecraft
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] John Bertoglio
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] Joel Kelso
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] adam@treyarch.com
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Dynamic Load Balancing Kevin Scott London
- Open Source Environments (was: Open Source Online Gaming) scott guzman
- Open Source Environments (was: Open Source Online Gaming) Nathan F Yospe
- Fw: [RRE]MediaMOO birthday Celebration, March 20th 2000!!! Bruce
- Open Source Environments scott guzman
- MudDev FAQ part 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ part 1 Todd McKimmey
- MudDev FAQ part 1 Marian Griffith
- MUD Dev FAQ part 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ part II Marian Griffith
- Questions about the MudDev FAQ Marian Griffith
- Open Gaming? J C Lawrence
- Open Source Environments / MacOS X J C Lawrence
- Open Source Environments / MacOS X Chris Jacobson
- Star Wars gmud? Nathan F Yospe
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] J C Lawrence
- [CODE] unique items J. Coleman
- [CODE] unique items Draymoor
- [CODE] unique items cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- [CODE] unique items Matthew Mihaly
- [CODE] unique items Quzah
- [CODE] unique items J. Coleman
- [CODE] unique items Ben Greear
- [CODE] unique items Kevin Scott London
- [CODE] unique items Lord Ashon
- [CODE] unique items Marc Bowden
- [CODE] unique items J C Lawrence
- Kanga.Nu has a new IP J C Lawrence
- Licensing and Clauses Chris Jacobson
- The Meta list is now open and active. J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Par Winzell
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Phillip Lenhardt
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Phillip Lenhardt
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really nec essary? Koster, Raph
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really nec essary? Nathan F Yospe
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Draymoor
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? scott guzman
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Chris Jones
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Dr Richard A. Bartle
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Lazarus
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Phillip Lenhardt
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Brandon J. Rickman
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Marian Griffith
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really nec essary? Brian Ashburn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Par Winzell
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? adam@treyarch.com
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Matthew Mihaly
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Draymoor
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Vijay Weasel Prabhakar
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems J C Lawrence
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems adam@treyarch.com
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Dundee
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems David Bennett
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Wes Connell
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Fred Clift
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Draymoor
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Ananda Dawnsinger
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Todd McKimmey
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems AR Schleicher
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Wes Connell
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- (fwd) mud.design.ideas Nathan Fenenga Yospe
- Command interface for Coordinate based world WriterDL@aol.com
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Draymoor
- Command interface for Coordinate based world adam@treyarch.com
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Nathan F Yospe
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Vijay Weasel Prabhakar
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Jeremy Noetzelman
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Laurel Fan
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Lovecraft
- ADMIN: Moving house and posting delays J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #18 - 17 msgs Dr. Cat
- Embedding C/C++ Draymoor
- Embedding C/C++ Justin Rogers
- Embedding C/C++ J C Lawrence
- multiplaying Tess Lowe
- multiplaying Lovecraft
- multiplaying Wes Connell
- Online Justice Systems scott guzman
- Online Justice Systems Matthew Mihaly
- Online Justice Systems J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Wes Connell
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Wes Connell
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Marc Bowden
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens adam@treyarch.com
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Rasdan
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Par Winzell
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Todd McKimmey
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Todd McKimmey
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
None of the below is written as the list owner:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:22:55 -0800
Justin Rogers <justin@mlstoday.com> wrote:
> [Compliments of Matthew Mihally]
>> You were banned for repeatedly and willfully ignoring the
>> warnings you were given. Paraphrasing what Gordon Walton said at
>> a GDC lecture, "Ban them by the hundreds." (referring to
>> troublemakers, particularly 'hardcore gamer troublemakers).
> Ok, What could a single person do that would warrant a ban.
Simply, and this harks right back to the old FIDO rules:
Being excessively annoying.
What constitutes an "annoyance" is variant, may or may not be
documented, and may or may not be imposed on whim or foible, may or
may not be justifiable, and may or may not be done with malice
aforethought -- but the basic fact is, it really does come down to
being excessively annoying in some fashion. Does it really mattered
that you threatened to kill someone's mother, your DESC stated that
you are a negro hating white supremecist with over-sized genitalia,
you swore a blue streak, you attempted to rut everything in sight
with a feminine description, you incessently spammed the public
channels, or were just in the wrong place at the wrong time as a
fresh-logged-in-newbie? Truth is, you annoyed someone a little too
much and that person was able to do something about their annoyance.
The fact that central server models implicitly support dictatorial
powers on the part of the admins leads to, and even encurage all the
standard abuses (Jon Lambert has a coined a nice phrases for this
area) doesn't help. You can attempt to apply various counter
balancing agents (as LambdaMOO has for instance), and they can be
quite successful -- but they also rest on the fact that they can
only be instantiated in the first place by an absolute dictator
(which is ironically neat).
Capricious excercise of administrative power doesn't encourage good
games or popular/populous game worlds. Relying on personal
constancy in your admins (often yourself for smaller/private games)
only scales so far, and there are inevitable problems with
temptation and personal hot items/button pushing (the list archives
show some of mine). Installing a formalised regulatory system
allows a player to predict administrative rulings with some level of
confidence, and also often adds some level of transparency (a rather
US-centric consideration), accountability, auditing, public
participation, player-based and run political systems etc.
A problem is that such regulatory systems are intensely dependent on
population size. This can be as simple as 12 member jury trials not
working well when you only have 50 players total with never more
than 4 on at a time, or the more complex fact that the definition of
what is "excessively annoying" changes from when you have 4 players
online at once to when you 4,000 players online at once, or when the
average age of your player base moves from 25 years to 14 years or
40 years.
The questions:
What sorts of regulatory systems can be applied to game worlds?
And more interestingly:
How and why do the regulatory systems have to change as the
population size changes?
What are the inflection points for when various systems become
(in)applicable and why?
Raph has observed in various indirect fashions without concentrating
on this point, some of the problems they've confronted with Legend
and UO as the population grew and old methods become inapplicable
(eg guards, cities, banking, security, reputation counters, name
colours etc) none of which were unique to Legend/UO IIRC. I also
recall (without checking) some similar commentary from DarkAges(?)
in regard to their polling/legal system and its development over
time.
> I've read the many things this particular person has done via his
> TFC memoirs or whatever you might call them. It seems this person
> spends a bit too much time online and may take your worlds far to
> seriously. Since this person lives in your world they try to
> impose changes as they would in the real world. They want to make
> the world you offer them more realistic and fair.
Which is all fine and dandy, and even applaudable.
> So if this person is doing nothing more than speaking his mind
> then maybe your MUD, your programming, or your mind is not ready
> to accept the idea that many people regard your MUD as their world
> now and not as an escape or past time. Just as AD&D became
> lifestyle for many people, I've seen chatters engross some college
> students completely. The banning or kicking of their account
> sends them into utter depression.
There's a balance in there in what responsibilities, and to what
degree, you consider each party bears. Where you stand on that
point tends to mirror your political leanings. The standard
argument on one side is that the vendor holds no responsibility for
the player's state of mind, or the resulting impacts, but that they
are responsible as business people to their clientele and future
revenues (the "economic engine"). The equally standard argument on
the other side is that the vendor has (various levels of)
responsibility for the maleffects (esp addictive or psychological)
of his services on his clients and therefore must provide
appropriate counter-services as needed (the standard extension to
which is, "What? The drug dealer also has to pay for drug rehab for
his dope addicts?"). [1]
I'm not prepared to have that argument on this list. I'm sure with
a little thought we'll all realise that we've heard it before, and
more importantly, that repeating it here is not going to change
anyone's mind _or_ help MUD-Dev in any way. (Please note that I'm
not writing as the list owner, tho, oddly, he happens to hold rather
similar views (this is called "reserving judgement")).
Ignoring the personality conflict angles:
At what point does having a particular player in the game, or
ensuring that a particular player remains in your game, or any of
the other related permutations cost more in effort, money,
resources, attention diverted from other tasks etc, than that player
is worth to you _and_ to the game?
And possibly more importantly:
What effect does making the continued presence of a single player
in your game THAT (un)important have on the rest of the game,
particularly on the social and cultural aspects of that game world?
What if the player in question were your wife/husband? Your
professor/boss? Your in-law? Son/daughter? Neighbor? Banker or
Venture Capitalist or other company funder? One can also reverse
these questions and make it very immediate (and somewhat
uncomfortable) by substituting "friend" for player, and "you and
your family" for "game and game world".
I've had to confront this with MUD-Dev. There have been a few
members (not many) that I found excessively annoying. None are
still members of the list (and no, I did not summarily evict any of
them, and no, I won't say who). There have also been a number of
members who have left the list that I desperately wish would have
remained as they had a great deal to offer (and no, I won't say who,
and no, none have come back). I've taken the tack that while I
might wish for someone's absence or continued presence, I would NOT
change anything with the list for the sake of any single person on
the list. For me, there's a certain sense of (regularly questioned
and re-examined) integrity there.
Note: I will not discuss particulars for MUD-Dev as I consider that
data confidential between the relevent list member and myself (this
is another reason I'm not writing as list owner). I am willing
however to discuss abstract cases that do not derive from MUD-Dev
cases, and in particular cases that apply to other forums/MUDs.
** Not really footnotes:
** [1] FWVLIW one of the more amusing and fascinating current
** implications of this divide is a European motion to require
** automobile manufacturers to buy back any car they made from its
** owner for a minimal (but not negligable) sum, and the furious
** reaction this has received from American manufacturers. The
** stated purpose of the legislation is to handle the problem of
** abandoned junk vehicles by placing partial responsibility for
** them upon the initial vendor of the vehicle.
When you get right down to it, "Its the people stupid!"
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw@kanga.nu
----------(*) Internet: coder@kanga.nu
...Honorary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... - Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Dan Shiovitz
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
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- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
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- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Kevin Scott London
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Marc Bowden
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon A. Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens adam@treyarch.com
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon A. Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Par Winzell
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- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Kristen L. Koster
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Tess Lowe
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Tess Lowe
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
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- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens David Bennett
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- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
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- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Zak Jarvis
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Par Winzell
- Online Justice Systems (response to J C) J C Lawrence
- Online Justice Systems (response to J C) scott guzman
- Meta: Questions about the MudDev FAQ Jon A. Lambert
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Aaron Leslie
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Baldur Norddahl
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Chris Jacobson
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Lovecraft
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Tess Lowe
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Kevin Scott London
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Sellers, Michael
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Kevin Scott London
- Object and class hierarchies -- are they really necessary? Christopher Allen
- ScryMUD 2.0.11 released. Ben Greear
- ADMIN: Spam filters and being unsubscribed J C Lawrence
- World and History Creation Ling
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- characters per account Timothy Dang
- characters per account F. Randall Farmer
- characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
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- characters per account Timothy Dang
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- Richard Garriot's 'X' project Matthew Mihaly
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- Richard Garriot's 'X' project skeptack
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- Richard Garriot's 'X' project Brian Green
- Debugging techniques adam@treyarch.com
- Lord British gone Geoffrey A. MacDougall