March 2000
- Portal Matthew Mihaly
- randomly dropped connections Matthew Mihaly
- randomly dropped connections cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- randomly dropped connections Ben Greear
- randomly dropped connections J C Lawrence
- randomly dropped connections adam@treyarch.com
- randomly dropped connections Kevin Littlejohn
- Mud Network Setup Jon A. Lambert
- Mud Network Setup adam@treyarch.com
- Mud Network Setup J C Lawrence
- Mud Network Setup David Bennett
- Mud Network Setup Todd McKimmey
- Mud Network Setup David Bennett
- Mud Network Setup J C Lawrence
- Mud Network Setup adam@treyarch.com
- Mud Network Setup Jon A. Lambert
- Mud Network Setup J C Lawrence
- Mud Network Setup Emil Eifrem
- Mud Network Setup Dominic J. Eidson
- Mud Network Setup Emil Eifrem
- Mud Network Setup Eli Stevens {Grey}
- Mud Network Setup Todd McKimmey
- Mud Network Setup adam@treyarch.com
- Mud Network Setup cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- Mud Network Setup Steve Boleware
- Mud Network Setup Joe Andrieu
- Mud Network Setup John Bertoglio
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? claw@kanga.nu
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? adam@treyarch.com
- (fwd) MU* hiasb@cc.gatech.edstory? 송재경
- Processor Usage Christopher Kohnert
- Processor Usage J C Lawrence
- Processor Usage Dominic J. Eidson
- Processor Usage Ben Greear
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #298 - 11 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- MUD timeline Jon Leonard
- MUD timeline Richard Woolcock
- MUD timeline J C Lawrence
- MUD timeline Kristen L. Koster
- MUD timeline Kristen L. Koster
- MUD timeline Lovecraft
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline AR Schleicher
- MUD timeline Matthew Mihaly
- MUD timeline Matthew Mihaly
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline Dundee
- MUD timeline Darrin Hyrup
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline Moreland, John
- MUD timeline Darrin Hyrup
- MUD timeline jkerr@htech.withoutthisstuff.com
- MUD timeline __Deric___@yahoo.com
- MUD timeline Darrin Hyrup
- MUD timeline Erik Jarvi
- MUD timeline Travis Casey
- MUD timeline Jon A. Lambert
- MUD timeline Travis Casey
- MUD timeline Jon A. Lambert
- MUD timeline Travis Casey
- MUD timeline Bruce
- MUD timeline Daniel A. Koepke
- MUD timeline cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- MUD timeline Dr Richard A. Bartle
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- MUD timeline Koster, Raph
- MUD timeline Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- MUD timeline Sellers, Michael
- MUD timeline Jon Whitehouse
- MUD timeline Derek Snider
- MUD timeline J C Lawrence
- MUD timeline Sellers, Michael
- MUD timeline Matthew Mihaly
- MUD timeline J C Lawrence
- MUD timeline Ryan Palacio
- Mud Timeline Darrell Michaud
- Mud Timeline Klimon, Ian
- Mud Timeline Matt Mihaly
- ADMIN: Ooops, damn... J C Lawrence
- FW: MUD timeline Daniel James
- MUD timeline F. Randall Farmer
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #298 - 11 msgs Koster, Raph
- Skotos Website Up Christopher Allen
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Joe Andrieu
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Joe Andrieu
- CGDC dinner Koster, Raph
- CGDC dinner Bruce
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Derek Snider
- CGDC dinner Ryan Palacio
- CGDC dinner Koster, Raph
- CGDC dinner Sellers, Michael
- CGDC dinner Derek Snider
- CGDC dinner Joel Dillon
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Emil Eifrem
- CGDC dinner Richard Ross
- CGDC dinner J C Lawrence
- CGDC dinner Wes Connell
- CGDC dinner Suess123@aol.com
- CGDC dinner Joel Dillon
- ADMIN: Posting delays J C Lawrence
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript Laurel Fan
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript Bruce
- javascript Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- javascript Bruce
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #302 - 6 msgs Dr. Cat
- Admin: Corrections, data loss, and interruptions in service. J C Lawrence
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Greg Underwood
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Wes Connell
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Kristen L. Koster
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Greg Underwood
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws David Bennett
- Raph's collection of MUD design Laws J C Lawrence
- (OT) Admin: Library memberships J C Lawrence
- Open Source Online Gaming Aaron Mitchell
- Open Source Online Gaming Koster, Raph
- Open Source Online Gaming Bryce Harrington
- Open Source Online Gaming Bruce
- Open Source Online Gaming J C Lawrence
- Open Source Online Gaming Bryce Harrington
- Open Source Online Gaming Ryan
- Open Source Online Gaming Erik Jarvi
- Open Source Online Gaming Derek Snider
- Open Source Online Gaming Aaron Mitchell
- GDC Dinner Matthew Mihaly
- GDC Dinner Justin Rogers
- ADMIN: looking for work? J C Lawrence
- [OT] Sound in games Erik Jarvi
- [OT] Sound in games Koster, Raph
- politics J C Lawrence
- Have openings Gary Whitten
- HTML as a MUD client . . . was javascript John Bertoglio
- ADMIN: Kanga.Nu will be moving (again) J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: Lost mail? J C Lawrence
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] Lovecraft
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] John Bertoglio
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] Joel Kelso
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] adam@treyarch.com
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Dynamic Load Balancing Kevin Scott London
- Open Source Environments (was: Open Source Online Gaming) scott guzman
- Open Source Environments (was: Open Source Online Gaming) Nathan F Yospe
- Fw: [RRE]MediaMOO birthday Celebration, March 20th 2000!!! Bruce
- Open Source Environments scott guzman
- MudDev FAQ part 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ part 1 Todd McKimmey
- MudDev FAQ part 1 Marian Griffith
- MUD Dev FAQ part 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ part II Marian Griffith
- Questions about the MudDev FAQ Marian Griffith
- Open Gaming? J C Lawrence
- Open Source Environments / MacOS X J C Lawrence
- Open Source Environments / MacOS X Chris Jacobson
- Star Wars gmud? Nathan F Yospe
- better usage through mechanics [from: CGDC dinner] J C Lawrence
- [CODE] unique items J. Coleman
- [CODE] unique items Draymoor
- [CODE] unique items cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- [CODE] unique items Matthew Mihaly
- [CODE] unique items Quzah
- [CODE] unique items J. Coleman
- [CODE] unique items Ben Greear
- [CODE] unique items Kevin Scott London
- [CODE] unique items Lord Ashon
- [CODE] unique items Marc Bowden
- [CODE] unique items J C Lawrence
- Kanga.Nu has a new IP J C Lawrence
- Licensing and Clauses Chris Jacobson
- The Meta list is now open and active. J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Par Winzell
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Phillip Lenhardt
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Phillip Lenhardt
On Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 03:14:27PM -0800, J C Lawrence wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:01:33 -0500
> Phillip Lenhardt <philen@funky.monkey.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 03:57:25PM -0800, J C Lawrence wrote:
> >> True. That was one of the sources of the design requirement for
> >> Murkle that features must be programmable without requiring
> >> source access to any other objects.
>
> > No matter how many times I read this design requirement--and it
> > has been many: I have read and reread nearly every thread in the
> > archive in which it appears--I always come to the conclusion that
> > it is either tautological or trivially false. Since both those
> > conclusions seem unlikely candidates for what you mean, I was
> > wondering if you could clarify.
>
> Aye, the wording is not the best. A better statement:
>
> In order to program any feature in the game source level access
> must not be required to any other pre-existent objects in the game
> that are not the direct recipients of the feature. Ie. If a
> feature is going to _directly_ affect only objects X, Y, and Z, then
> those are the ONLY objects that should need to be accessed.
>
> Even that's not so great. There were a variety of scenarios used to
> develop the basic concepts:
<scenarios snipped>
While very interesting and imaginative those scenarios (which I've read
before) just talk _around_ the basic concepts. I am going to try to nail
down some basics and then try to address my concerns in relation to them.
Objects have attributes. An object can add, delete or change any of its
attributes arbitrarily. An object can send messages to and receive
messages from outside itself. the contents of the messages are just
things that could be atribute value. An object can react to a message by
either changing its attributes, sending messages outside itself, or both.
An object has _no_ direct knowledge of where messages come from or where
messages it sends out go to.
--BEGIN ANALOGY, DO NOT TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY--
As an analogy, consider a human being (Bob) as one of these objects. Bob's
thoughts are object attributes. Bob can think about whatever he likes.
Bob uses his senses to perceive the external world. The things he sees,
hears, smells, touches, etc. are messages from the outside. The things
Bob does, says, etc. are messages to the outside world. Suppose Bob sees
Alice (ie. he receives a sight message from outside world). Does Bob know
that Alice is another human being object? No. All he has is the contents
of messages from the outside world. Can he send messages to the
outside world intended for Alice and structured in such a way that if he
were the one to receive them he could understand them? Yes. Being an object
means being able to send messages of any structure to the outside world.
--END ANALOGY--
All in all a pretty grim picture. Objects exist in a kind of existential
void. Luckily, object-oriented languages are usually more featureful than
this. For example, languages usually implement messages in such a way that
an object can determine which other object, if any, sent it (eg. checking
the caller of a method). Languages also make it possible for an object
to verify the type of another object (eg. checking the class of an object).
But note, however, that even if a language didn't implement this features,
you could code as if they held true and as long as all the code played
nice, your system would be equivalent to a system where these things
were enforced by the language.
--BEGIN MAIN POINT--
My concern is that Murkle's spoofs and watchers force objects into that
existential void. If someone else can write code that wraps your object
and doesn't let messages through, your object is useless and untrustable.
And if someone can only wrap spoofs and watchers around their own
objects, why should they bother? They can just rewrite those objects.
--END MAIN POINT--
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Phillip Lenhardt
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really nec essary? Koster, Raph
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really nec essary? Nathan F Yospe
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Draymoor
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? scott guzman
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Chris Jones
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Dr Richard A. Bartle
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Lazarus
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Phillip Lenhardt
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Brandon J. Rickman
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Marian Griffith
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really nec essary? Brian Ashburn
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Par Winzell
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? J C Lawrence
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? adam@treyarch.com
- Object and class heirarchies -- are they really necessary? Kevin Littlejohn
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Matthew Mihaly
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Draymoor
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Vijay Weasel Prabhakar
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems J C Lawrence
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems adam@treyarch.com
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Dundee
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems David Bennett
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Wes Connell
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Fred Clift
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Draymoor
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Ananda Dawnsinger
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Todd McKimmey
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems AR Schleicher
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Wes Connell
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Sayeed
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Koster, Raph
- Gamasutra: Online Justice Systems Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- (fwd) mud.design.ideas Nathan Fenenga Yospe
- Command interface for Coordinate based world WriterDL@aol.com
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Draymoor
- Command interface for Coordinate based world adam@treyarch.com
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Nathan F Yospe
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Vijay Weasel Prabhakar
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Jeremy Noetzelman
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Laurel Fan
- Command interface for Coordinate based world Lovecraft
- ADMIN: Moving house and posting delays J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #18 - 17 msgs Dr. Cat
- Embedding C/C++ Draymoor
- Embedding C/C++ Justin Rogers
- Embedding C/C++ J C Lawrence
- multiplaying Tess Lowe
- multiplaying Lovecraft
- multiplaying Wes Connell
- Online Justice Systems scott guzman
- Online Justice Systems Matthew Mihaly
- Online Justice Systems J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Wes Connell
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Wes Connell
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Marc Bowden
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens adam@treyarch.com
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Rasdan
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Par Winzell
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Todd McKimmey
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Todd McKimmey
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Dan Shiovitz
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Chris Jones
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Dundee
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Zak Jarvis
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Todd McKimmey
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Fred Clift
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Gunnar Kreitz
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Justin Rogers
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Ananda Dawnsinger
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Kevin Scott London
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Marc Bowden
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon A. Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens adam@treyarch.com
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon A. Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Par Winzell
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Kristen L. Koster
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Tess Lowe
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Jon Lambert
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Tess Lowe
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Joe Andrieu
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Chris Lloyd
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens David Bennett
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Chris Lloyd
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Koster, Raph
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Matthew Mihaly
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Zak Jarvis
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens J C Lawrence
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Zak Jarvis
- Trouble Makers or Regular Citizens Par Winzell
- Online Justice Systems (response to J C) J C Lawrence
- Online Justice Systems (response to J C) scott guzman
- Meta: Questions about the MudDev FAQ Jon A. Lambert
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Aaron Leslie
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Baldur Norddahl
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Chris Jacobson
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Lovecraft
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Tess Lowe
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Kevin Scott London
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Sellers, Michael
- RE:Troublemakers and their M.O. Kevin Scott London
- Object and class hierarchies -- are they really necessary? Christopher Allen
- ScryMUD 2.0.11 released. Ben Greear
- ADMIN: Spam filters and being unsubscribed J C Lawrence
- World and History Creation Ling
- characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- characters per account F. Randall Farmer
- characters per account Jeff Freeman
- characters per account Sellers, Michael
- characters per account LexaH@aol.com
- characters per account Jeff Freeman
- characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- characters per account AR Schleicher
- characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- characters per account AR Schleicher
- characters per account John Bertoglio
- characters per account Sayeed
- characters per account Matthew Mihaly
- characters per account Sayeed
- characters per account Brian Green
- characters per account Timothy Dang
- characters per account F. Randall Farmer
- characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- characters per account Kristen L. Koster
- characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- characters per account Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- characters per account Timothy Dang
- characters per account Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- characters per account Darren Henderson
- characters per account adam@treyarch.com
- characters per account Jon Lambert
- characters per account Darren Henderson
- characters per account J C Lawrence
- characters per account Zak Jarvis
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project Matthew Mihaly
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project Sellers, Michael
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project skeptack
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project skeptack
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project AR Schleicher
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project Jeff Freeman
- Richard Garriot's 'X' project Brian Green
- Debugging techniques adam@treyarch.com
- Lord British gone Geoffrey A. MacDougall