December 2000
- Components and Inheritence Jon Lambert
- Components and Inheritence John Buehler
- Components and Inheritence Jon Lambert
- Cash for Lawsuits UCMM Administration
- Cash for Lawsuits Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Cash for Lawsuits Patrick Dughi
- Cash for Lawsuits Matthew D. Fuller
- Cash for Lawsuits Patrick Dughi
- Cash for Lawsuits Matthew Mihaly
- Cash for Lawsuits Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Cash for Lawsuits Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Cash for Lawsuits Alex
- Names (was: An essay on d00dz ...) Marian Griffith
- Names (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") gmiller@classic-games.com
- Names (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Travis Casey
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Graham Reitz
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Peter
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Corey Crawford
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Patrick Dughi
- New and looking for a good place to get started... J C Lawrence
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Permadeath or Not? Corey Crawford
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Ben Chambers
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Nixon
- Permadeath or Not? Corey Crawford
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Madrona Tree
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Nixon
- Permadeath or Not? Zak Jarvis
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Vincent Archer
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Dave Rickey
- Permadeath or Not? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Batir
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Permadeath or Not? Kwon Ekstrom
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? J. Eric Townsend
- Permadeath or Not? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Madrona Tree
- Permadeath or Not? Marian Griffith
- Permadeath or Not? rayzam
- Greetings from Organelle o. rchaeus
- Diku & GPL Patrick Dughi
- Diku & GPL Jon Lambert
- Diku & GPL Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Diku & GPL Jon Lambert
- Diku & GPL J C Lawrence
- Diku & GPL Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Diku & GPL Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Diku & GPL Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Diku & GPL Vincent Archer
- Diku & GPL gmiller@classic-games.com
- Diku & GPL Lars Duening
- Diku & GPL Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Diku & GPL Alex
- Diku & GPL Corey Crawford
- Diku & GPL George Greer
- Current Server Versions (was: "New and looking for a good place to get started...") Corey Crawford
- Current Server Versions Corey Crawford
- Current Server Versions J C Lawrence
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- A list of MMORPG Questions Jeff Freeman
- A list of MMORPG Questions Vincent Archer
- A list of MMORPG Questions J C Lawrence
- A list of MMORPG Questions Marc Bowden
- A list of MMORPG Questions Dave Rickey
- A list of MMORPG Questions John Szeder
- A list of MMORPG Questions Dave Kennerly
- A list of MMORPG Questions Corey Crawford
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Jeff Freeman
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Lee Sheldon
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Sage
- Distro for Intricate / Numerous Mobs Hulbert, Leland
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Yves K
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion olag@ifi.uio.no
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion John Vanderbeck
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Tess Lowe
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Jeff Freeman
- Levels of immersion Tess Lowe
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Jeff Freeman
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion olag@ifi.uio.no
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion msew
- Levels of immersion J C Lawrence
- Permadeath Nigel Chapman
- Permadeath Tess Snider
- Permadeath Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- History of a Game Christopher Allen
- Levels of immersion (Warning LONG) John Vanderbeck
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Lord Ashon
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Travis Casey
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Lord Ashon
- Interesting EQ rant Tess Lowe
- New stuff on my site Koster, Raph
- New stuff on my site John Vanderbeck
- Tile Editor for MUD? Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Phillip Lenhardt
- Moving away from the level based system Dave Rickey
- Moving away from the level based system rayzam
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system msew
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Phillip Lenhardt
- Moving away from the level based system Mike Warning
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system rayzam
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Gabriel
- Moving away from the level based system Ron Moore
- Moving away from the level based system Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system Jon Morrow
- Moving away from the level based system Batir
- Moving away from the level based system Ron Moore
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system Christopher Allen
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system David Bennett
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
<EdNote: Please indent game quotes/logs so they quote better later (I
did this one (as well as Travis' original))>
Travis Casey writes:
> How else can long-term actions be handled, then? One method is to
> have timed actions -- the action takes a certain amount of time, and
> until that time has gone by, the character can't do anything else
> without losing the progress that's been made. This is done
> sometimes in paper RPGs, when long- and short-term actions have to
> coincide -- e.g., if a thief is trying to pick a lock in the middle
> of a fight.
>
> Unfortunately, this can be very frustrating for players, and for
> very long-term actions, would be even more so. Imagine:
>
> > forge sword
> You begin forging a sword.
> > e
> Are you sure you want to quit forging the sword? You have 1 hour,
> 59 minutes, 54 seconds left to go on it. (y/n): n
>
> Not something anyone probably wants to subject a player to.
>
> A second method is to make a single long-term action consist of
> multiple short-term actions. This, however, is very subject to
> macroing and/or scripting, and, even if it can't be macroed or
> scripted, may be boring to the players. It takes a lot of care to
> do it successfully.
>
> A third method is to have such long-term actions happen "offstage"
> -- that is, the character does them while the player is logged off.
> This can work nicely, but requires some sort of interface for
> players to specify what they want their characters to do while
> they're logged off, and a reporting mechanism so that a player can
> find out what a character actually got done when he/she logs on.
>
> Any other ideas on how to implement long-term actions?
Sure, you already presented it.
> forge sword
You begin forging a sword. It will be completed in approximately 2
hours.
> e
Do you wish to continue forging a sword? It will require
approximately 59 minutes (y/n): y
At which point, you exit. This is the approach that I postulated a
while back on a Vault Network board. In truth, I only consider these
things from a graphical sense and assume that there will be a
graphical presentation of the forging of the sword.
That assumption later led me to the axiom that states that no task
should be presented to a player unless it is entertaining to an
afficianado of that task. Bread baking should be entertaining to
those who enjoy baking bread. Sword fighting should be entertaining
to those who enjoy sword fighting. In deference to Raph, stamp
collecting should be entertaining to those who enjoy stamp collecting.
This, as opposed to having bread baking done the way those who enjoy
sword fighting would do it (click on dough, click on oven, BAM,
bread).
The way I see all tasks working out is that the game must engage the
player for the duration of the task, meaning that tasks must be broken
down into a series of steps. Not arbitrarily, but in such a way that
the player is making strategic decisions about the result. This is
true of combat as we see it today. Wield this weapon, hit that
target, retreat to here, ambush them, whatever. The player is engaged
for the duration of the task, which is frequently just to get whatever
the opponent is carrying. Forging a sword should be the same way.
How many times should the metal be folded, assuming the technique of
folding is known? How long should the tang be? How long should the
blade be? How wide? Where should the balance point be? And so on.
These things will come out as the player directs his character to
strike the metal here or there, to fold it another time, to apply this
treatment or that, to cool the metal in oil or water, or any of a
number of treatments. These are the decisions that an afficianado of
sword making enjoys. Hearing the ring of the hammer, the quenching of
the heated metal, the pump of the bellows, etc. Mistakes will be made
by less-skilled characters and the player must decide on a path of
correction - just as a new twist in a combat scenario forced the
player to make decisions.
Obviously, the pace of forging a sword is going to be rather different
from the pace of battle. That's okay, because it is the afficianados
that enjoy the different paces. Personally, I really enjoyed fishing
in EverQuest. I would have enjoyed it far more if it had been more
engaging, forcing me to think about where to cast, what baits or lures
to use and to have a variety of fish to catch with different values,
weights, etc. If I had had the opportunity to practice casting, I
probably would have just gone to a shoreline spot and cast. Without
bait or lure.
Oh, and I assume that all tasks should take place with a non-trivial
elapsed time. I don't believe that forging a sword can be kept
entertaining for several hours. But certainly it can be kept engaging
for a few minutes. The blade of a sword alone could take several
minutes. Then there's the task of crafting the guard, grip, pommel,
wrapping the hilt, perhaps ornamenting it and even etching the blade.
Not to mention magical treatments.
The corollary to 'keep the player engaged' is that players should not
be forced to practice tasks that are not entertaining. For example,
eating. Unless the treatment of food can be made entertaining, why
bother putting it into the game? Need the dose of realism and
limitation that having food brings to the game? Fine, spend the time
to figure out how to make food entertaining and engaging.
Note that breaking a task up into various steps can permit the player
to stop the overall task at any time and return to it later. There
may be a startup delay while the character does preparatory work
(lighting the forge, heating the metal again), but work should be able
to be resumed. In this way, very long duration tasks can be managed,
so long as the player stays connected for the duration of a single
preparation/step pair.
The subtask approach also permits text games to generate specific
messages about what is going on in the subtask. The player initiates
each subtask with its appropriate options, and the game can be as
descriptive about each subtask as the designers like. That, instead
of "You begin forging a sword" and then 2 hours later "You have forged
a sword". If that's all you're going to do, let the poor player log
off and have the work continue while he's away. Personally, that
sounds more like something that would work well in an email-controlled
game. I just send an email to my character telling it to forge a
sword and get an email back two hours later.
JB - Moving away from the level based system gmiller@classic-games.com
- Moving away from the level based system Hulbert, Leland
- Moving away from the level based system Kwon Ekstrom
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Tess Lowe
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Moving away from the level based system Szii
- Moving away from the level based system Gabriel
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system Kwon Ekstrom
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system Hulbert, Leland
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Dealing with high-level characters. Zak Jarvis
- Speaking of Everquest... Ananda Dawnsinger
- Magic systems, was: Moving away from the level based system Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Immersion Types (was Levels of Immersion) Tess Lowe
- Immersion Types (was Levels of Immersion) Jeff Freeman
- Text Parsers szii@sziisoft.com
- Text Parsers Darren Henderson
- Text Parsers Travis Casey
- Text Parsers Nathan F.Yospe
- Re:Text Parsers szii@sziisoft.com
- EQ Crawling (was: Permadeath or Not?) Mike Warning
- EQ Crawling (was: Permadeath or Not?) Jeff Freeman
- Building a New MUD Ron
- Building a New MUD SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- NPC grouping (LONG) Hulbert, Leland
- NPC grouping (LONG) ling@kanga.nu
- NPC grouping (LONG) Hulbert, Leland
- Level-less skill systems John W Pierce
- Forks or Frameworks? Gavin Doughtie
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? szii@sziisoft.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Thomas, Chris
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Tess Snider
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Koster, Raph
- Forks or Frameworks? bruce@puremagic.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Dave Rickey
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Tess Snider
- Forks or Frameworks? Jon Morrow
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Koster, Raph
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Kwon Ekstrom
- Forks or Frameworks? gmiller@classic-games.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- LPC text parser Travis Casey
- "Exclusion" in Asimov's Greg Miller
- New Skill System Phil O'Donnell
- New Skill System John W Pierce
- New Skill System jsmithn@hotmail.com
- New Skill System gmiller@classic-games.com
- New Skill System John Buehler
- New Skill System Koster, Raph
- New Skill System John Buehler
- New Skill System Madrona Tree
- New Skill System gmiller@classic-games.com
- New Skill System Jon Morrow
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level based system) z032383@students.niu.edu
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Andrew Snelling
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Chris Lloyd
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Travis Casey
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Chris Lloyd
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Andrew Snelling
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level based system) Phil Hall
- Must infrastructure dictate content? (was: Forks or Frameworks) Gavin Doughtie
- Virtual Communities olag@ifi.uio.no
- Virtual Communities Jon Morrow
- Virtual Communities msew
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) Scatter
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) z032383@students.niu.edu
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) Batir
- Ray Feist interview Koster, Raph
- Ray Feist interview John Buehler
- Ray Feist interview David Loeser
- Ray Feist interview John Vanderbeck
- Ray Feist interview John Buehler
- Ray Feist interview Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Ray Feist interview Travis Casey
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Ray Feist interview Travis Casey
- Ray Feist interview Fredfish {E. Harper}
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Storytelling Games [was: Ray Feist interview] Christopher Allen
- Curing skill spam Dan
- Curing skill spam Travis Casey
- Curing skill spam Jon Lambert
- Curing skill spam Alistair Milne