December 2000
- Components and Inheritence Jon Lambert
- Components and Inheritence John Buehler
- Components and Inheritence Jon Lambert
- Cash for Lawsuits UCMM Administration
- Cash for Lawsuits Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Cash for Lawsuits Patrick Dughi
- Cash for Lawsuits Matthew D. Fuller
- Cash for Lawsuits Patrick Dughi
- Cash for Lawsuits Matthew Mihaly
- Cash for Lawsuits Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Cash for Lawsuits Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Cash for Lawsuits Alex
- Names (was: An essay on d00dz ...) Marian Griffith
- Names (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") gmiller@classic-games.com
- Names (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Travis Casey
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Graham Reitz
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Peter
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Corey Crawford
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Patrick Dughi
- New and looking for a good place to get started... J C Lawrence
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Permadeath or Not? Corey Crawford
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Ben Chambers
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Nixon
- Permadeath or Not? Corey Crawford
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Madrona Tree
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Nixon
- Permadeath or Not? Zak Jarvis
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Vincent Archer
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Dave Rickey
- Permadeath or Not? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Batir
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Permadeath or Not? Kwon Ekstrom
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? J. Eric Townsend
- Permadeath or Not? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Madrona Tree
- Permadeath or Not? Marian Griffith
- Permadeath or Not? rayzam
- Greetings from Organelle o. rchaeus
- Diku & GPL Patrick Dughi
- Diku & GPL Jon Lambert
- Diku & GPL Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Diku & GPL Jon Lambert
- Diku & GPL J C Lawrence
- Diku & GPL Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Diku & GPL Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Diku & GPL Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Diku & GPL Vincent Archer
- Diku & GPL gmiller@classic-games.com
- Diku & GPL Lars Duening
- Diku & GPL Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Diku & GPL Alex
- Diku & GPL Corey Crawford
- Diku & GPL George Greer
- Current Server Versions (was: "New and looking for a good place to get started...") Corey Crawford
- Current Server Versions Corey Crawford
- Current Server Versions J C Lawrence
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- A list of MMORPG Questions Jeff Freeman
- A list of MMORPG Questions Vincent Archer
- A list of MMORPG Questions J C Lawrence
- A list of MMORPG Questions Marc Bowden
- A list of MMORPG Questions Dave Rickey
- A list of MMORPG Questions John Szeder
- A list of MMORPG Questions Dave Kennerly
- A list of MMORPG Questions Corey Crawford
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Jeff Freeman
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Lee Sheldon
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Sage
- Distro for Intricate / Numerous Mobs Hulbert, Leland
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Yves K
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion olag@ifi.uio.no
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion John Vanderbeck
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Tess Lowe
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Jeff Freeman
- Levels of immersion Tess Lowe
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Jeff Freeman
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion olag@ifi.uio.no
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion msew
- Levels of immersion J C Lawrence
- Permadeath Nigel Chapman
- Permadeath Tess Snider
- Permadeath Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- History of a Game Christopher Allen
- Levels of immersion (Warning LONG) John Vanderbeck
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Lord Ashon
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Travis Casey
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Lord Ashon
- Interesting EQ rant Tess Lowe
- New stuff on my site Koster, Raph
- New stuff on my site John Vanderbeck
- Tile Editor for MUD? Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Phillip Lenhardt
- Moving away from the level based system Dave Rickey
- Moving away from the level based system rayzam
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system msew
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Phillip Lenhardt
- Moving away from the level based system Mike Warning
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system rayzam
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
----- Original Message -----
From: "rayzam" <rayzam@home.com>
To: <mud-dev@kanga.nu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:46 AM
Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Moving away from the level based system
> Okay, I can see that. But will it take a lot more sword swinging to
> up your strength from 20->21 or 9->10. In other words, is the power
> derived from the attributes linear, and hence their increase also
> linear? Or is either nonlinear/exponential? In terms of determining
> how big your batteries are/etc, it seems like it'd be linear power
> based on stats. However, if the power of the spells by the cost
> isn't linear, then you're actually gaining nonlinear power even with
> linear stats. This isn't a large point, I'm just trying to
> understand the system more, because I like the concept :)
Oops Sorry. I actually had meant to answer this in my previous post,
but must have forgot. At the current time, Primary Attributes are in
the rough range of 6-36 (rouch because it is based on race), and the
curve is pretty close to exponential.
<SNIP>
> In this system, the player just chooses and joins the guild [after
> performing a joining quest, and having the correct
> prerequisites]. By appearance, it seems the same as yours. The nice
> benefit of your system is that it's determined by actions/usages, so
> you can't act one way and then join something else. Actions speak
> louder than words. Of course, it seems to also mean you can't give
> up a career and switch to a new one [and the RP aspects of
> that]. I'm not convinced that your disciplines isn't the same as a
> level system, it's just not a linear level system within a single
> homogeneous class, i.e. Necromancer goes from level 1 to 75, and
> every level 50 Necromancer is basically the same. Which is a good
> thing :)
To a large extent, you are right, you can not decide halfway through
life to change where you are on that tree. A Caster can't become a
Warrio, and a Warrior can't become a Caster. However, and I haven't
finalized this yet, but I have been considering in game quests that
might allow you to move a little bit within a sub tree. Say a warrior
who specializes in Swords, experiences some tragic event and decides
he's never going to use a weapon again..can he then do something to
move to say a wrestler or monk? Perhaps. I think there would most
likely be penalties involved though. He would most likely give up
ever returning to where he was, and would probably incur penalties in
his new position.
<SNIP>
> Aha! This is a very key point in your system that wasn't in the
> original post. Now that makes a lot of things clearer, and removes
> some of my later comments, because its not truly an open skill/spell
> system. Abilities in a spell are also based on usage. Hence its more
> like a skill-based system affecting both skills/spells and
> attributes, in a classless system, where the Discipline per se is
> determined by a variety of these factors. It's sounding more like
> Champions/Hero rpg in many ways [have you ever checked it out?].
Never seen either of those. I will take a look though. You hit the
nail pretty much right on the head as to how the system works. Your
actions decide your characters fate, and with the more flexible
backbone I think it will result in very different characters. But
more than that, since your character grows into a role that you are
naturally playing, it will promote (I hope) better roleplaying.
Functional Roleplaying as I have heard it called before. Raph Koster
mentioned it, but I don't remember his quoted source. It wasn't
something I had thought of before, but when I heard about it and ran
it through my design, I realized that my design seems to promote it
rather well.
> It's very cool that the more you use a spell the cheaper you get to
> cast it. But how can you cast a more powerful spell? Like if a spell
> requires a certain amount of points to cast [before you have any
> experience with it], then neither of the 2 casters could cast it at
> all, before 1 could cast it a lot and have a cheaper cast. How doe
> the 'spell types'/specializations work in this system? If you
> practice magic missile a lot and are very good at it, is your cost
> for magic bomb, magic icbm, etc decreased too, even though you've
> never cast them?
Yes, because of the "spell types", as you grow in a certain type, it
makes it easier to cast others of that type. The types aren't
completely worked out yet, partly because I can't decide how to
classify them. Do I use more conventional divisions like D&D with
Conjuration, Evocation, etc, or with a more literal breakdown such as
Fire, Ice, Illusion, Healing, etc. Regardless though, if you focus on
a certain area of spells, you receive bonuses, and those bonuses will
make it easier for you to cast other spells in that area for the first
times. Note that there is a >VERY< key point to be made here. You
must FOCUS on a certain area for bonuses. What this means is you
can't just have one spell in a certain type, and cast it a million
times, then expect to get bonuses in that whole area. No. Focusing
means that a large portion of your spell base is in that area. No
numbers yet on how large a portion, but probably something like
20%-30% of your overall spells. This allows you to focus on multiple
areas as well.
<SNIP>
> The first post that I inferred to mean it was only based on
> attributes led to that. With skill-use based skill advancement,
> spell-use based effects, spell groups, Disciplines determining
> access, then it's really a large mix, with many things affecting
> advancement, than an attribute-based advancement. Because of that,
> it seems less likely it'd be homogenized, unless in actual practice
> players find some power imbalances, in which case they may gravitate
> to specific endpoints. That is, if one group/type of spells is more
> powerful or more useful, it'll get used more, and that makes the
> next level of specialization easier to achieve, funneling characters
> into specific roles. It's equivalent to something in neural net
> designs wherein the functions [of many variables as this], when run
> through, may reduce to a series of local minima, even when the
> initial or early values encompass all the available
> space/variance. So the hard part will come in balancing it across
> everything, which is the rub in any system.. > Rayzam
Yes, if there becomes a funnel point, then my entire system is , well,
basicaly destroyed :) That is why I expect, if I ever get this thing
out of a notebook and into a MUD, I will be spending a VERY long time
balancing everything, and once it is all balanced, I will be very
afraid to ever add any new spells and Disciplines. Wich, by not doing,
in itself could be a bad thing. The world becomes more stagnant and I
have to focus on content instead. The lessons of EverQuest have shown
players may not accept that, and instead will insist on constant
"class" changes wich I don't think I could provide without the chances
of serious backlash.
I originally wanted to do this as a graphical MUD, like M59, EQ, UO,
or AC. But as I am just one person, and have been working on code off
and on for like 4 years, I doubt it will ever come to be. Perhaps I
should just step back and realize that while >I< may like my design,
it isn't going to go anywhere. But I still like it :)
- John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Gabriel
- Moving away from the level based system Ron Moore
- Moving away from the level based system Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system Jon Morrow
- Moving away from the level based system Batir
- Moving away from the level based system Ron Moore
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system Christopher Allen
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system David Bennett
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system gmiller@classic-games.com
- Moving away from the level based system Hulbert, Leland
- Moving away from the level based system Kwon Ekstrom
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Tess Lowe
- Moving away from the level based system Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Moving away from the level based system Szii
- Moving away from the level based system Gabriel
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system Kwon Ekstrom
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system Hulbert, Leland
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Dealing with high-level characters. Zak Jarvis
- Speaking of Everquest... Ananda Dawnsinger
- Magic systems, was: Moving away from the level based system Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Immersion Types (was Levels of Immersion) Tess Lowe
- Immersion Types (was Levels of Immersion) Jeff Freeman
- Text Parsers szii@sziisoft.com
- Text Parsers Darren Henderson
- Text Parsers Travis Casey
- Text Parsers Nathan F.Yospe
- Re:Text Parsers szii@sziisoft.com
- EQ Crawling (was: Permadeath or Not?) Mike Warning
- EQ Crawling (was: Permadeath or Not?) Jeff Freeman
- Building a New MUD Ron
- Building a New MUD SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- NPC grouping (LONG) Hulbert, Leland
- NPC grouping (LONG) ling@kanga.nu
- NPC grouping (LONG) Hulbert, Leland
- Level-less skill systems John W Pierce
- Forks or Frameworks? Gavin Doughtie
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? szii@sziisoft.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Thomas, Chris
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Tess Snider
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Koster, Raph
- Forks or Frameworks? bruce@puremagic.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Dave Rickey
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Tess Snider
- Forks or Frameworks? Jon Morrow
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Koster, Raph
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Kwon Ekstrom
- Forks or Frameworks? gmiller@classic-games.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- LPC text parser Travis Casey
- "Exclusion" in Asimov's Greg Miller
- New Skill System Phil O'Donnell
- New Skill System John W Pierce
- New Skill System jsmithn@hotmail.com
- New Skill System gmiller@classic-games.com
- New Skill System John Buehler
- New Skill System Koster, Raph
- New Skill System John Buehler
- New Skill System Madrona Tree
- New Skill System gmiller@classic-games.com
- New Skill System Jon Morrow
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level based system) z032383@students.niu.edu
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Andrew Snelling
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Chris Lloyd
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Travis Casey
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Chris Lloyd
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Andrew Snelling
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level based system) Phil Hall
- Must infrastructure dictate content? (was: Forks or Frameworks) Gavin Doughtie
- Virtual Communities olag@ifi.uio.no
- Virtual Communities Jon Morrow
- Virtual Communities msew
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) Scatter
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) z032383@students.niu.edu
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) Batir
- Ray Feist interview Koster, Raph
- Ray Feist interview John Buehler
- Ray Feist interview David Loeser
- Ray Feist interview John Vanderbeck
- Ray Feist interview John Buehler
- Ray Feist interview Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Ray Feist interview Travis Casey
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Ray Feist interview Travis Casey
- Ray Feist interview Fredfish {E. Harper}
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Storytelling Games [was: Ray Feist interview] Christopher Allen
- Curing skill spam Dan
- Curing skill spam Travis Casey
- Curing skill spam Jon Lambert
- Curing skill spam Alistair Milne