December 2000
- Components and Inheritence Jon Lambert
- Components and Inheritence John Buehler
- Components and Inheritence Jon Lambert
- Cash for Lawsuits UCMM Administration
- Cash for Lawsuits Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Cash for Lawsuits Patrick Dughi
- Cash for Lawsuits Matthew D. Fuller
- Cash for Lawsuits Patrick Dughi
- Cash for Lawsuits Matthew Mihaly
- Cash for Lawsuits Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Cash for Lawsuits Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Cash for Lawsuits Alex
- Names (was: An essay on d00dz ...) Marian Griffith
- Names (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") gmiller@classic-games.com
- Names (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Travis Casey
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Graham Reitz
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Peter
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Corey Crawford
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Patrick Dughi
- New and looking for a good place to get started... J C Lawrence
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Permadeath or Not? Corey Crawford
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Ben Chambers
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Nixon
- Permadeath or Not? Corey Crawford
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Madrona Tree
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Nixon
- Permadeath or Not? Zak Jarvis
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Vincent Archer
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Dave Rickey
- Permadeath or Not? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Batir
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Permadeath or Not? Kwon Ekstrom
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? J. Eric Townsend
- Permadeath or Not? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Madrona Tree
- Permadeath or Not? Marian Griffith
- Permadeath or Not? rayzam
- Greetings from Organelle o. rchaeus
- Diku & GPL Patrick Dughi
- Diku & GPL Jon Lambert
- Diku & GPL Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Diku & GPL Jon Lambert
- Diku & GPL J C Lawrence
- Diku & GPL Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Diku & GPL Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Diku & GPL Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Diku & GPL Vincent Archer
- Diku & GPL gmiller@classic-games.com
- Diku & GPL Lars Duening
- Diku & GPL Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Diku & GPL Alex
- Diku & GPL Corey Crawford
- Diku & GPL George Greer
- Current Server Versions (was: "New and looking for a good place to get started...") Corey Crawford
- Current Server Versions Corey Crawford
- Current Server Versions J C Lawrence
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- A list of MMORPG Questions Jeff Freeman
- A list of MMORPG Questions Vincent Archer
- A list of MMORPG Questions J C Lawrence
- A list of MMORPG Questions Marc Bowden
- A list of MMORPG Questions Dave Rickey
- A list of MMORPG Questions John Szeder
- A list of MMORPG Questions Dave Kennerly
- A list of MMORPG Questions Corey Crawford
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Jeff Freeman
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Lee Sheldon
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Sage
- Distro for Intricate / Numerous Mobs Hulbert, Leland
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Yves K
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion olag@ifi.uio.no
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion John Vanderbeck
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Tess Lowe
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Jeff Freeman
- Levels of immersion Tess Lowe
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Jeff Freeman
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion olag@ifi.uio.no
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion msew
- Levels of immersion J C Lawrence
- Permadeath Nigel Chapman
- Permadeath Tess Snider
- Permadeath Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- History of a Game Christopher Allen
- Levels of immersion (Warning LONG) John Vanderbeck
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Lord Ashon
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Travis Casey
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Lord Ashon
- Interesting EQ rant Tess Lowe
- New stuff on my site Koster, Raph
- New stuff on my site John Vanderbeck
- Tile Editor for MUD? Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Phillip Lenhardt
- Moving away from the level based system Dave Rickey
- Moving away from the level based system rayzam
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system msew
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Phillip Lenhardt
- Moving away from the level based system Mike Warning
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system rayzam
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Vanderbeck" <agathorn@cfl.rr.com>
To: <mud-dev@kanga.nu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Moving away from the level based system
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "rayzam" <rayzam@home.com>
> To: <mud-dev@kanga.nu>
> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 9:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Moving away from the level based system
<SNIP>
>> 1) Okay, but how are the attributes increased? when do they
>> increase? are they trained up with experience? Is there an
>> exponential cost scale: IQ of 9->10 is cheaper than 20->21?
>
> There isn't any experience per se, not in the traditional sense.
> Atrributes mainly raise by doing things wich would affect them. If
> you swing your sword alot, your Strength will go up. There are also
Okay, I can see that. But will it take a lot more sword swinging to up
your strength from 20->21 or 9->10. In other words, is the power
derived from the attributes linear, and hence their increase also
linear? Or is either nonlinear/exponential? In terms of determining
how big your batteries are/etc, it seems like it'd be linear power
based on stats. However, if the power of the spells by the cost isn't
linear, then you're actually gaining nonlinear power even with linear
stats. This isn't a large point, I'm just trying to understand the
system more, because I like the concept :)
> certain turning points in a characters life where he or she will
> receive character points to enchance stats. These arne't levels but
> milestones such as a caster finally becoming a priest, or a warrior
> becoming a swordsman.
>
> It works off of what I had originally called a "Discipline Tree",
> but then EverQuest used the word so I will probably change it. What
> it means is that at the start of the game, everyone is the same.
> Your actions, and even inactions, move you slowly along this tree.
> A snippet of the tree:
>
> BASE
> |_ Caster
> |_ Priest
> |_ Priest of Whoever
> |_ Priest of .... etc
> |_ Wizard
> |_ Warrior
> |_ Man-at-Arms
> |_ Various Specializations
> |_ Wrestler
> |_ Monk
>
> Thats just a snippet. Characters advance through this tree based on
> actions they take, skills they use, spells they cast, and other
> events in the world. When they move from one branch to another,
> they get to distribute new characters points, but there attributes
> still go up on thier own by usage, regardless of the tree. On the
> surface this looks and sounds like a level based system with another
> name, but I assure you it is not. Its more of a classification
> system. I wanted to design something that, like I mentioned before,
> allows two characters to essentially start the same and simply grow
> into the role they naturally play.
At Retromud, we have a level based system. You have an overall level
or race level. With that, you can take those levels in various
guilds. The guilds follow a tree such as that above.
Example:
Mage [Hermetic mages are Elemental based]
|_ 8 different Elemental guilds these give specialized skill/spell
access, and more damage with that type.
|_ further guilds specializing in that element, allowing for
faster casting, more critical successes, cheaper costs, etc
|_ Telemancer [teleportation/travel guild]
|_ Kon path [abilities with a staff]
|_ extra staff damage, extra staff attacks, extra parrying
ability with a staff, etc in a variety of guilds
<etc...>
So you can make an Illusionist versus a Pyromancer. You can be more
general instead. Or you can become a Pyrowizard and eventually a
Pyromagus. Or you could be a mage, then a telemancer, and then become
adept with the staff.
In this system, the player just chooses and joins the guild [after
performing a joining quest, and having the correct prerequisites]. By
appearance, it seems the same as yours. The nice benefit of your
system is that it's determined by actions/usages, so you can't act one
way and then join something else. Actions speak louder than words. Of
course, it seems to also mean you can't give up a career and switch to
a new one [and the RP aspects of that]. I'm not convinced that your
disciplines isn't the same as a level system, it's just not a linear
level system within a single homogeneous class, i.e. Necromancer goes
from level 1 to 75, and every level 50 Necromancer is basically the
same. Which is a good thing :)
>> 2) In a level-based system, levels determine what skills or spells
>> you have access to. In this system, your stats do. So there is
>> still a level effect, however, the level number is just more
>> abstract or requires a formula. A caster able to handle lightning
>> storm is a higher level than one who can only cast up to lightning
>> bolt.
>
> Yes. I submit there will always be some sort of level effect, but
> something more abstract like this is more flexible and doesn't seem
> as artificial to me. Your second statement about the lightning
> storm vs lightning bolt however is not true. Alot of this I didn't
> post, but basically this more abstract system allows characters even
> of the same type and general power range to develop differently.
> For example, you could have two casters of equal "power" and yet one
> may be able to cast a much more "powerful" spell than another. This
> comes about fromt he fact that 1) Each and every spell is treated as
> a seperate skill, and 2) Spells are grouped into "types" wich allows
> specialization. The better you are at a spell, meaning you use it
> alot or practice, the less energy required touse that spell (to a
> point). Again its a rough overview, but the end effect is that you
> may be much more "powerful" than I, but since I have devoted my life
> to the spells of illusion, I can go invisible alot easier than you
> could.
Aha! This is a very key point in your system that wasn't in the
original post. Now that makes a lot of things clearer, and removes
some of my later comments, because its not truly an open skill/spell
system. Abilities in a spell are also based on usage. Hence its more
like a skill-based system affecting both skills/spells and attributes,
in a classless system, where the Discipline per se is determined by a
variety of these factors. It's sounding more like Champions/Hero rpg
in many ways [have you ever checked it out?].
It's very cool that the more you use a spell the cheaper you get to
cast it. But how can you cast a more powerful spell? Like if a spell
requires a certain amount of points to cast [before you have any
experience with it], then neither of the 2 casters could cast it at
all, before 1 could cast it a lot and have a cheaper cast. How doe the
'spell types'/specializations work in this system? If you practice
magic missile a lot and are very good at it, is your cost for magic
bomb, magic icbm, etc decreased too, even though you've never cast
them?
<SNIP>
>> It seems that this system isn't different in spirit with level,
>> class, or skill-based systems. It's slightly different in
>> mechanics:
>
> I argue that anything will essentialy be the same, at least the same
> effetc, but with different mechanics. I'm trying to propose a more
> flexible system.
Yep. I'm not saying that level is the end-all be-all. Just that in
terms of player-advancement, these systems are in some respects all
level-based [unlike the suggestion someone made for a set pool of
points to distribute around, removing the level aspect, or rp-mushes
with storytellers, where there isn't that sort of advancement system].
More flexibility is good. I have a penchant for liking more
options/choices/abilities/things to do. Complexity is the spice of
life!
>> And there's the rub. With this attribute only system, 2 players
>> with the same values of those 3 caster stats are the same
>> casters. No specialization. No individuality. That's why all the
>> attribute heavy RPGs still had the ability to train specific
>> skills. > > Without building some of that into there, you're not
>> opening up more character possibilities [if that is the intention],
>> you're homogenizing characters even more.
>
>
> That is the serious problem, and thats why as I mentioned above, the
> system is designed so this shouldn't happen. I could be wrong
> though.
The first post that I inferred to mean it was only based on attributes
led to that. With skill-use based skill advancement, spell-use based
effects, spell groups, Disciplines determining access, then it's
really a large mix, with many things affecting advancement, than an
attribute-based advancement. Because of that, it seems less likely
it'd be homogenized, unless in actual practice players find some power
imbalances, in which case they may gravitate to specific
endpoints. That is, if one group/type of spells is more powerful or
more useful, it'll get used more, and that makes the next level of
specialization easier to achieve, funneling characters into specific
roles. It's equivalent to something in neural net designs wherein the
functions [of many variables as this], when run through, may reduce to
a series of local minima, even when the initial or early values
encompass all the available space/variance. So the hard part will come
in balancing it across everything, which is the rub in any system..
Rayzam - Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Gabriel
- Moving away from the level based system Ron Moore
- Moving away from the level based system Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system Jon Morrow
- Moving away from the level based system Batir
- Moving away from the level based system Ron Moore
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system Christopher Allen
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system David Bennett
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system gmiller@classic-games.com
- Moving away from the level based system Hulbert, Leland
- Moving away from the level based system Kwon Ekstrom
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Tess Lowe
- Moving away from the level based system Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Moving away from the level based system Szii
- Moving away from the level based system Gabriel
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system rayzam
- Moving away from the level based system Kwon Ekstrom
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system Hulbert, Leland
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Dealing with high-level characters. Zak Jarvis
- Speaking of Everquest... Ananda Dawnsinger
- Magic systems, was: Moving away from the level based system Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Immersion Types (was Levels of Immersion) Tess Lowe
- Immersion Types (was Levels of Immersion) Jeff Freeman
- Text Parsers szii@sziisoft.com
- Text Parsers Darren Henderson
- Text Parsers Travis Casey
- Text Parsers Nathan F.Yospe
- Re:Text Parsers szii@sziisoft.com
- EQ Crawling (was: Permadeath or Not?) Mike Warning
- EQ Crawling (was: Permadeath or Not?) Jeff Freeman
- Building a New MUD Ron
- Building a New MUD SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- NPC grouping (LONG) Hulbert, Leland
- NPC grouping (LONG) ling@kanga.nu
- NPC grouping (LONG) Hulbert, Leland
- Level-less skill systems John W Pierce
- Forks or Frameworks? Gavin Doughtie
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? szii@sziisoft.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Thomas, Chris
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Tess Snider
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Koster, Raph
- Forks or Frameworks? bruce@puremagic.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Dave Rickey
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Tess Snider
- Forks or Frameworks? Jon Morrow
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Koster, Raph
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Kwon Ekstrom
- Forks or Frameworks? gmiller@classic-games.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- LPC text parser Travis Casey
- "Exclusion" in Asimov's Greg Miller
- New Skill System Phil O'Donnell
- New Skill System John W Pierce
- New Skill System jsmithn@hotmail.com
- New Skill System gmiller@classic-games.com
- New Skill System John Buehler
- New Skill System Koster, Raph
- New Skill System John Buehler
- New Skill System Madrona Tree
- New Skill System gmiller@classic-games.com
- New Skill System Jon Morrow
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level based system) z032383@students.niu.edu
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Andrew Snelling
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Chris Lloyd
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Travis Casey
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Chris Lloyd
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Andrew Snelling
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level based system) Phil Hall
- Must infrastructure dictate content? (was: Forks or Frameworks) Gavin Doughtie
- Virtual Communities olag@ifi.uio.no
- Virtual Communities Jon Morrow
- Virtual Communities msew
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) Scatter
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) z032383@students.niu.edu
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) Batir
- Ray Feist interview Koster, Raph
- Ray Feist interview John Buehler
- Ray Feist interview David Loeser
- Ray Feist interview John Vanderbeck
- Ray Feist interview John Buehler
- Ray Feist interview Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Ray Feist interview Travis Casey
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Ray Feist interview Travis Casey
- Ray Feist interview Fredfish {E. Harper}
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Storytelling Games [was: Ray Feist interview] Christopher Allen
- Curing skill spam Dan
- Curing skill spam Travis Casey
- Curing skill spam Jon Lambert
- Curing skill spam Alistair Milne