December 2000
- Components and Inheritence Jon Lambert
- Components and Inheritence John Buehler
- Components and Inheritence Jon Lambert
- Cash for Lawsuits UCMM Administration
- Cash for Lawsuits Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Cash for Lawsuits Patrick Dughi
- Cash for Lawsuits Matthew D. Fuller
- Cash for Lawsuits Patrick Dughi
- Cash for Lawsuits Matthew Mihaly
- Cash for Lawsuits Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Cash for Lawsuits Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Cash for Lawsuits Alex
- Names (was: An essay on d00dz ...) Marian Griffith
- Names (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") gmiller@classic-games.com
- Names (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Travis Casey
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Graham Reitz
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Peter
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Corey Crawford
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Patrick Dughi
- New and looking for a good place to get started... J C Lawrence
- New and looking for a good place to get started... Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Permadeath or Not? Corey Crawford
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Ben Chambers
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Nixon
- Permadeath or Not? Corey Crawford
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Madrona Tree
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Nixon
- Permadeath or Not? Zak Jarvis
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Vincent Archer
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Dave Rickey
- Permadeath or Not? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Batir
- Permadeath or Not? Koster, Raph
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Permadeath or Not? Kwon Ekstrom
- Permadeath or Not? Jeff Freeman
- Permadeath or Not? J. Eric Townsend
- Permadeath or Not? Ananda Dawnsinger
- Permadeath or Not? Travis Casey
- Permadeath or Not? John Buehler
- Permadeath or Not? Madrona Tree
- Permadeath or Not? Marian Griffith
- Permadeath or Not? rayzam
- Greetings from Organelle o. rchaeus
- Diku & GPL Patrick Dughi
- Diku & GPL Jon Lambert
- Diku & GPL Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Diku & GPL Jon Lambert
- Diku & GPL J C Lawrence
- Diku & GPL Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Diku & GPL Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Diku & GPL Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Diku & GPL Vincent Archer
- Diku & GPL gmiller@classic-games.com
- Diku & GPL Lars Duening
- Diku & GPL Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Diku & GPL Alex
- Diku & GPL Corey Crawford
- Diku & GPL George Greer
- Current Server Versions (was: "New and looking for a good place to get started...") Corey Crawford
- Current Server Versions Corey Crawford
- Current Server Versions J C Lawrence
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- A list of MMORPG Questions Jeff Freeman
- A list of MMORPG Questions Vincent Archer
- A list of MMORPG Questions J C Lawrence
- A list of MMORPG Questions Marc Bowden
- A list of MMORPG Questions Dave Rickey
- A list of MMORPG Questions John Szeder
- A list of MMORPG Questions Dave Kennerly
- A list of MMORPG Questions Corey Crawford
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Jeff Freeman
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Lee Sheldon
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Eric Rhea
- A list of MMORPG Questions Koster, Raph
- A list of MMORPG Questions Sage
- Distro for Intricate / Numerous Mobs Hulbert, Leland
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Yves K
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion olag@ifi.uio.no
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion John Vanderbeck
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Tess Lowe
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Tess Snider
- Levels of immersion Jeff Freeman
- Levels of immersion Tess Lowe
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion Jeff Freeman
- Levels of immersion Travis Casey
- Levels of immersion olag@ifi.uio.no
- Levels of immersion Richard A. Bartle
- Levels of immersion msew
- Levels of immersion J C Lawrence
- Permadeath Nigel Chapman
- Permadeath Tess Snider
- Permadeath Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- History of a Game Christopher Allen
- Levels of immersion (Warning LONG) John Vanderbeck
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Lord Ashon
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Travis Casey
- NPC Goals ( Was: Dynamic Timelines) Lord Ashon
- Interesting EQ rant Tess Lowe
- New stuff on my site Koster, Raph
- New stuff on my site John Vanderbeck
- Tile Editor for MUD? Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Phillip Lenhardt
- Moving away from the level based system Dave Rickey
- Moving away from the level based system rayzam
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system msew
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Phillip Lenhardt
- Moving away from the level based system Mike Warning
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
----- Original Message -----
From: "rayzam" <rayzam@home.com>
To: <mud-dev@kanga.nu>
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Moving away from the level based system
> Going off on a tangent to the point of the original post...
>
> That seems to assume that everyone starts off the same race, or a
> single race universe. Let alone no genetic differences, or
> differences prior to the age the player gains control of the
> character. Now, this isn't a bad thing per se. In my opinion,
> however, it limits backstory. Not only should the world have a good
> backstory, but so should the character. Or at least the possibility
> for it. That's a lot of what having a variety of races does, it
> gives a template background for the character: a merman has a
> different previous history than a rock troll or a wood elf. And even
> within a race, having attributes vary in starting characters aids in
> building a backstory. This is more true if class and race affect
> starting stats.
>
> In the final analysis, having all characters start off the same,
> makes immersion into the game/world take longer for me.
I was actually speaking in a more abstract sense. I completely agree
with things such as different races. When I said all characters
should enter the game the same and then grow into thier playstyle, it
was more abstract. Yes you would choose a race, yes you would choose
a gender. But if you take two Selonians and drop them into the game,
they start the same. They won't be the same in a month.
> Yes. This is a nice way of running things. It reminds me of
> Champions/Heroes with variable power pools..
>
> It's a good system. Stats then become the most important factor. But
> I'd like to hear more of the details/differences between it and
> level- and skill-based systems.
>
> 1) Okay, but how are the attributes increased? when do they
> increase? are they trained up with experience? Is there an
> exponential cost scale: IQ of 9->10 is cheaper than 20->21?
There isn't any experience per se, not in the traditional sense.
Atrributes mainly raise by doing things wich would affect them. If
you swing your sword alot, your Strength will go up. There are also
certain turning points in a characters life where he or she will
receive character points to enchance stats. These arne't levels but
milestones such as a caster finally becoming a priest, or a warrior
becoming a swordsman.
It works off of what I had originally called a "Discipline Tree", but
then EverQuest used the word so I will probably change it. What it
means is that at the start of the game, everyone is the same. Your
actions, and even inactions, move you slowly along this tree. A
snippet of the tree:
BASE
|_ Caster
|_ Priest
|_ Priest of Whoever
|_ Priest of .... etc
|_ Wizard
|_ Warrior
|_ Man-at-Arms
|_ Various Specializations
|_ Wrestler
|_ Monk
Thats just a snippet. Characters advance through this tree based on
actions they take, skills they use, spells they cast, and other events
in the world. When they move from one branch to another, they get to
distribute new characters points, but there attributes still go up on
thier own by usage, regardless of the tree. On the surface this looks
and sounds like a level based system with another name, but I assure
you it is not. Its more of a classification system. I wanted to
design something that, like I mentioned before, allows two characters
to essentially start the same and simply grow into the role they
naturally play.
> 2) In a level-based system, levels determine what skills or spells
> you have access to. In this system, your stats do. So there is
> still a level effect, however, the level number is just more
> abstract or requires a formula. A caster able to handle lightning
> storm is a higher level than one who can only cast up to lightning
> bolt.
Yes. I submit there will always be some sort of level effect, but
something more abstract like this is more flexible and doesn't seem as
artificial to me. Your second statement about the lightning storm vs
lightning bolt however is not true. Alot of this I didn't post, but
basically this more abstract system allows characters even of the same
type and general power range to develop differently. For example, you
could have two casters of equal "power" and yet one may be able to
cast a much more "powerful" spell than another. This comes about
fromt he fact that 1) Each and every spell is treated as a seperate
skill, and 2) Spells are grouped into "types" wich allows
specialization. The better you are at a spell, meaning you use it
alot or practice, the less energy required touse that spell (to a
point). Again its a rough overview, but the end effect is that you
may be much more "powerful" than I, but since I have devoted my life
to the spells of illusion, I can go invisible alot easier than you
could.
> 3) In a class-based system, classes determine your character's
> development. A caster class will give access to the spells the
> same way having those caster-based stats would.
Again, based on above, two casters will develop differently. That and
the fact that my notebook has a good 250-300 UNIQUE spells in it,
means its highly unlikely any two casters would be identical. I mean
unique spells, not same spells renamed, and not as EverQuest does
where you get the same spell at a higher level. Your spells grow with
you. There is no "Fireball" and "Super Fireball" being 2 spells.
There is just Fireball that grows in strength as you do.
> It seems that this system isn't different in spirit with level,
> class, or skill-based systems. It's slightly different in
> mechanics:
I argue that anything will essentialy be the same, at least the same
effetc, but with different mechanics. I'm trying to propose a more
flexible system.
> a) spells don't need to be trained individually, you get access
> to whatever you can cast based on your stats -> spell points.
Nope. See above.
> b) I'll assume the same is true for skills, and some
> skill-energy: endurance points?
No, again, each character chooses his own path and that path
determines what else is available. The Discipline Tree again.
> c) You gain power by increasing your stats due to this
> open-skill/open-spell policy.
In a way. You can power by using your skills/spells and using your
attributes wich causes them to increase.
> And there's the rub. With this attribute only system, 2 players with
> the same values of those 3 caster stats are the same casters. No
> specialization. No individuality. That's why all the attribute
> heavy RPGs still had the ability to train specific skills. > >
> Without building some of that into there, you're not opening up more
> character possibilities [if that is the intention], you're
> homogenizing characters even more.
That is the serious problem, and thats why as I mentioned above, the
system is designed so this shouldn't happen. I could be wrong though.
- John Vanderbeck - Moving away from the level based system rayzam
- Moving away from the level based system John Vanderbeck
- Moving away from the level based system Gabriel
- Moving away from the level based system Ron Moore
- Moving away from the level based system Corey Crawford
- Moving away from the level based system Jon Morrow
- Moving away from the level based system Batir
- Moving away from the level based system Ron Moore
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system Christopher Allen
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system David Bennett
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system gmiller@classic-games.com
- Moving away from the level based system Hulbert, Leland
- Moving away from the level based system Kwon Ekstrom
- Moving away from the level based system John Buehler
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Tess Lowe
- Moving away from the level based system Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Moving away from the level based system Jeff Freeman
- Moving away from the level based system Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Moving away from the level based system Szii
- Moving away from the level based system Gabriel
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system Kwon Ekstrom
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Moving away from the level based system Hulbert, Leland
- Moving away from the level based system Travis Casey
- Dealing with high-level characters. Zak Jarvis
- Speaking of Everquest... Ananda Dawnsinger
- Magic systems, was: Moving away from the level based system Richard.Woolcock@rsuk.rohde-schwarz.com
- Immersion Types (was Levels of Immersion) Tess Lowe
- Immersion Types (was Levels of Immersion) Jeff Freeman
- Text Parsers szii@sziisoft.com
- Text Parsers Darren Henderson
- Text Parsers Travis Casey
- Text Parsers Nathan F.Yospe
- Re:Text Parsers szii@sziisoft.com
- EQ Crawling (was: Permadeath or Not?) Mike Warning
- EQ Crawling (was: Permadeath or Not?) Jeff Freeman
- Building a New MUD Ron
- Building a New MUD SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- NPC grouping (LONG) Hulbert, Leland
- NPC grouping (LONG) ling@kanga.nu
- NPC grouping (LONG) Hulbert, Leland
- Level-less skill systems John W Pierce
- Forks or Frameworks? Gavin Doughtie
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? szii@sziisoft.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Thomas, Chris
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Tess Snider
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Koster, Raph
- Forks or Frameworks? bruce@puremagic.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Bryce Harrington
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Dave Rickey
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- Forks or Frameworks? Tess Snider
- Forks or Frameworks? Jon Morrow
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Koster, Raph
- Forks or Frameworks? Matthew Mihaly
- Forks or Frameworks? Kwon Ekstrom
- Forks or Frameworks? gmiller@classic-games.com
- Forks or Frameworks? Travis Casey
- LPC text parser Travis Casey
- "Exclusion" in Asimov's Greg Miller
- New Skill System Phil O'Donnell
- New Skill System John W Pierce
- New Skill System jsmithn@hotmail.com
- New Skill System gmiller@classic-games.com
- New Skill System John Buehler
- New Skill System Koster, Raph
- New Skill System John Buehler
- New Skill System Madrona Tree
- New Skill System gmiller@classic-games.com
- New Skill System Jon Morrow
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level based system) z032383@students.niu.edu
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Andrew Snelling
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Chris Lloyd
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Travis Casey
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Chris Lloyd
- Locker/Theft/Anti-Hoarding System Idea Andrew Snelling
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level based system) Phil Hall
- Must infrastructure dictate content? (was: Forks or Frameworks) Gavin Doughtie
- Virtual Communities olag@ifi.uio.no
- Virtual Communities Jon Morrow
- Virtual Communities msew
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) Scatter
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) z032383@students.niu.edu
- Curing skill spam (was: Moving away from the level base system) Batir
- Ray Feist interview Koster, Raph
- Ray Feist interview John Buehler
- Ray Feist interview David Loeser
- Ray Feist interview John Vanderbeck
- Ray Feist interview John Buehler
- Ray Feist interview Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Ray Feist interview Travis Casey
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Ray Feist interview Travis Casey
- Ray Feist interview Fredfish {E. Harper}
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Ray Feist interview Lee Sheldon
- Storytelling Games [was: Ray Feist interview] Christopher Allen
- Curing skill spam Dan
- Curing skill spam Travis Casey
- Curing skill spam Jon Lambert
- Curing skill spam Alistair Milne